Evaluation of Contest Manuscripts

Check out this podcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SxxYy4Xs8

You can listen to it on a podcast ap of course, this is just what I found.

3:38 answers your question, but it's a great podcast in its entirety. 

Posted by: @tj_knight

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Check out this podcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SxxYy4Xs8

You can listen to it on a podcast ap of course, this is just what I found.

3:38 answers your question, but it's a great podcast in its entirety. 

Well then—thank you for the YouTube link. I gained some interesting insights—for instance, that it's possible to resubmit a revised text. I also got a clearer understanding of the general rules regarding how modern editors perceive stories.

First, about an unexpected positive: as it turns out, if a editor here likes the first few pages of a submitted manuscript, they will almost certainly check the last page as well. In my opinion, that is actually quite effective.

Now for a reality that isn't particularly pleasant for me: the method of screening based on the opening pages, which relies on hooking the reader with incredible drama right from the first few paragraphs and making it instantly crystal clear... well, if you ask me, this approach immediately filters out a good chunk of high-quality work. Several basic requirements and recommendations also seem questionable.

Take Saint-Exupéry's The Little Prince, for example, which I used to consider a benchmark. Would it win a prize here?

First, his text is entirely original, and I fail to see how the advice to model one's work on previous contest winners would be of any help there.

Second—I read it a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, the opening pages aren't particularly dramatic. The deeper meaning of the text might escape a reader even after multiple passes. The ending, where the Prince is meant to be bitten by the snake, evokes suicide—even though the story itself isn't strictly about suicide. Thus, despite all its literary brilliance, it's doubtful Saint-Exupéry would have made it past even the first round.

If anyone thinks I'm mistaken, feel free to disagree—I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Now let's examine the potential of my contest submission. Do the first two and last two pages give a complete picture of the plot? Absolutely not. At the beginning, I build the world where the protagonist is born. From those first two pages, someone might even mistake it for a children's story—though that couldn't be further from the truth. On the final two pages, I wrap up the story's themes. So I can guarantee with absolute certainty: judging solely by the first two and last two pages, no reader would ever guess what a multi-layered thriller unfolds in between. Is that a flaw on the author's part? I never intended to lay everything bare on the very first pages anyway.

So, I either hook the reader through the sheer quality of my prose and voice, or I get passed over. But is there even a demand for somewhat complex stories these days? Highly doubtful.

And despite all that, I have a completely original world, a dynamic, epic, and deeply moving plot, a unique authorial style, and very solid mechanics.

Well, we'll see how things turn out for my Q4 submission.

Posted by: @dym

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Posted by: @tj_knight

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Check out this podcast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11SxxYy4Xs8

You can listen to it on a podcast ap of course, this is just what I found.

3:38 answers your question, but it's a great podcast in its entirety. 

Well then—thank you for the YouTube link. I gained some interesting insights—for instance, that it's possible to resubmit a revised text. I also got a clearer understanding of the general rules regarding how modern editors perceive stories.

First, about an unexpected positive: as it turns out, if a editor here likes the first few pages of a submitted manuscript, they will almost certainly check the last page as well. In my opinion, that is actually quite effective.

Now for a reality that isn't particularly pleasant for me: the method of screening based on the opening pages, which relies on hooking the reader with incredible drama right from the first few paragraphs and making it instantly crystal clear... well, if you ask me, this approach immediately filters out a good chunk of high-quality work. Several basic requirements and recommendations also seem questionable.

Take Saint-Exupéry's The Little Prince, for example, which I used to consider a benchmark. Would it win a prize here?

First, his text is entirely original, and I fail to see how the advice to model one's work on previous contest winners would be of any help there.

Second—I read it a long time ago, but if I remember correctly, the opening pages aren't particularly dramatic. The deeper meaning of the text might escape a reader even after multiple passes. The ending, where the Prince is meant to be bitten by the snake, evokes suicide—even though the story itself isn't strictly about suicide. Thus, despite all its literary brilliance, it's doubtful Saint-Exupéry would have made it past even the first round.

If anyone thinks I'm mistaken, feel free to disagree—I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Now let's examine the potential of my contest submission. Do the first two and last two pages give a complete picture of the plot? Absolutely not. At the beginning, I build the world where the protagonist is born. From those first two pages, someone might even mistake it for a children's story—though that couldn't be further from the truth. On the final two pages, I wrap up the story's themes. So I can guarantee with absolute certainty: judging solely by the first two and last two pages, no reader would ever guess what a multi-layered thriller unfolds in between. Is that a flaw on the author's part? I never intended to lay everything bare on the very first pages anyway.

So, I either hook the reader through the sheer quality of my prose and voice, or I get passed over. But is there even a demand for somewhat complex stories these days? Highly doubtful.

And despite all that, I have a completely original world, a dynamic, epic, and deeply moving plot, a unique authorial style, and very solid mechanics.

Well, we'll see how things turn out for my Q4 submission.

One thing to keep in mind is that this is all subjective. Every submission is (Unless you've been invited to submit). 

However, the slushers are trained to recognize stories that might win or be rewarded with HM or above for this contest. They read the first few pages (or more if they are hooked. There's no one staring over their shoulder telling them to stop at two), then they pass the story up to Jody. She reads more in-depth. 

Would The Little Prince have placed here? Unknown. It's older, maybe antiquated. Maybe the slusher would have recognized fine writing and passed it up to Jody who would read farther. Hard to know. 

As for yours, I can't speak directly, but having spent time with the slush readers (and asking lots of questions so I can help people here and my writers group) I'll reiterate that they are looking for stories that fit the WotF mold. This is a market and they have their own niche. The most important criterion is Original Idea. Not the only one, just the one that is weighted the most (Or a fresh/unique take on an old idea). Can you win without it? Possibly, but everything else would have to sing. The writing, the characters, the setting, a killer ending. Bring laughs or tears. Preferably both. Emotion is key. 

I will say I enjoyed your sample. I loved the richness of it. It's dense and I was beginning to get a picture of how you write and where you were going. Does that translate into an HM or above? If a slusher (and possibly Jody) agrees that you are writing along the lines of the WotF style and their niche, yes. Because even HMs are WotF-ish. They're potential finalists, if you will. Like the kids hanging out with the Oracle in The Matrix. The kids there had a niche. The most talented quarterback on the planet wasn't in that room, a kid who could bend spoons with his mind was. 

As for my story, it happened to have a low grade level on Flesch-Kincaid. That might have helped. The original idea was okay. Not the highest concept, but it passed. I had laughs and depending on the person, a tear or two. It needed every "trick" along the way because it came in third. That's how I approached the contest - what are they looking for? How can I write a story that hits those things? Dave Farland posted many times over the years, telling us the things he was looking for. 

Can you win without those things? Of course. I doubt Arthur Manners studied Dave's Daily Kick in the Pants like I did. Arthur won on his first submission and his story and style are nothing like mine. But his story was WotF-ish and it worked for the slusher, Jody, and the judges. 

Subjective. 

Many stories enter. Three stories leave. 

Posted by: @tj_knight

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One thing to keep in mind is that this is all subjective. Every submission is (Unless you've been invited to submit). 

However, the slushers are trained to recognize stories that might win or be rewarded with HM or above for this contest. They read the first few pages (or more if they are hooked. There's no one staring over their shoulder telling them to stop at two), then they pass the story up to Jody. She reads more in-depth. 

Would The Little Prince have placed here? Unknown. It's older, maybe antiquated. Maybe the slusher would have recognized fine writing and passed it up to Jody who would read farther. Hard to know. 

I had no doubt about it—every contest or publishing house has its own subjective way of evaluating manuscripts, and I'm not complaining about that. Theoretically, the terms here suit me fine. In practice, however, I see a strong trend toward maximum simplification and pure entertainment. Every era simply has its own demands and criteria. Established masters can probably afford to write whatever they want, but newcomers certainly don't have the luxury of a three-paragraph poetic prologue or moderate complexity—everything must be familiar and accessible to the general audience.

Yet, as the example of Saint-Exupéry shows, even masters aren't safe; he would stand a high chance of getting eliminated in the very first round today. And I don't believe such an elimination could be justified by calling it 'outdated'—certain things don't age even after thousands of years. I truly think a single talent of Saint-Exupéry's caliber is worth an awful lot... But anyway, just thinking out loud.

I don't disagree with either of your points. Loads of classics would probably get passed on today.

I remember reading McKee's book Story and he went on and on about the movie Chinatown and how awesome it is/was. I clicked and started watching it and yawned and wondered what the heck McKee was on. The scene when Jack first goes to the beach to see the body, (as I remember it) was him driving toward the lot, parking, getting out of his car, walking down the steps, walking down the beach, then finally seeing the police and asking what's up. Today? "There's a body?" Cut to: On The Beach "So, what do we have?" 

I know what they check for. They are well-read and know what is currently selling, so they are checking for works that they believe will sell to their target demographic. It's a business.

Learn the market for genre fiction.

Read recent Science-Fiction and Fantasy short stories by authors who were paid for their efforts.

Pay attention to the construction of their works by reverse outlining several of your favorites.

Pay attention to the sensory input that is in stories and how those senses are woven into the prose in order to immerse you in the story.

Pay special attention to the emotional state of the MC at the beginning and then how that state evolves as the story progresses to the end.

If you can do it, find out about the authors, where and when they grew up and how they were influenced by their surroundings and upbringing. Identify these same things for the editor. These are the people who write what sells and who buy what sells.

Your writing is a product. Do the market research to compete.

Then write with style and economy. Captivate with an emotional, high-stakes plot that moves the reader.

And... say it with me now.

Have Fun

So I think the point Prate and I agree most on is ... have fun

I think Prate's approach of researching a market and developing your product for that market is absolutely one creative philosophy. It is a market driven one. But while he and I both do research markets it sounds like we might (?) do it in a different sequence.

I always do market research after I've written the story - where does this particular thing belong? - rather than before writing it - what product does this editor want me to make?

Your approach may be a third one. But whatever the approach the only way to sell, is in matching piece to market - however, and whenever, you do that in your process. As I said earlier. There are other models eg self publishing and cutting out gatekeepers and creating the market yourself. But thats too much work for me

I will add that Prate's approach can work for anyone. But if you want to submit consistently to one specific market (eg WOTF) then my aapproach ONLY works if you are constantly writing. Otherwise the quarter passes and the only work you have fits somewhere else

Posted by: @kent

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Have Fun

1. Let me explain how I write. I have no desire to study markets or engage in sales. I don't dream of making billions off my manuscripts or becoming world-famous. I simply wanted to write a few great stories—first for myself and a handful of readers. Then I realized what I had created. And I wanted to share it with people. It felt wrong to quietly throw good things into the trash. So, once I accumulated a few manuscripts, I decided to submit them to contests and the like.

The thing is, I never intended—and still don't intend—to write to cater to anyone or align with what sells. If I have a three-paragraph poetic prologue, then it stays. And it's not even about dismissing the public's taste. For the sake of a contest victory or a first publication, I could remove it. I could make other simplifications, too. However, the core of the issue is that if I destroy my authorial structure to appease someone, my text will become gutted and lose its intrinsic value. What contest victories or publisher releases could we even speak of then? I would be ashamed to hold the book in my own hands. So my stance isn't born of pride. I simply see no point in making myself feel ashamed.

Specifically with this contest, the crux of the problem is that my text will hardly be read past page one, because neither page one nor page two offers commercial hooks—instead, they offer poetic resonance. But my work isn't just poetry; further in, there is thrill and action. I simply need them to read past page three of double-spaced text.

2. By the way, I wanted to ask: if a text is 5,000 words versus 14,000 words, can we expect that treating them identically yields valid results? Is there a gradation—a short text is clear from page one, while for a slightly longer text, do editors read at least two? After all, the structure of such texts isn't quite the same.

Posted by: @dym

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Posted by: @kent

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Have Fun

2. By the way, I wanted to ask: if a text is 5,000 words versus 14,000 words, can we expect that treating them identically yields valid results? Is there a gradation—a short text is clear from page one, while for a slightly longer text, do editors read at least two? After all, the structure of such texts isn't quite the same.

I can confirm there is gradation because I asked this same question once. Martin confirmed it for me. He said basically that a 60 page story (they don't see word count unless the author writes it) will get more leeway for, in this example, spec. AKA, if he doesn't see a speculative element on page one he will keep reading/looking (assuming the writing isn't gibberish, and they do get gibberish). But if a story is 10 pages, he'll be expecting that spec element by "The bottom of page two." 

So yeah, it's a percentage thing. At least in terms of looking for spec. 

Alternately, if you do get your spec in, you've got a leg up and they'll be reading for story. If it's spec and a story it goes to Jody and they move on to the next one in the queue.

So it's an interesting discussion because for me being a writer is a journey in humility. Not everyone likes my stuff. Even those pieces that do get accepted are not untouchable, it's standard practice that an editor then sends a marked up version for further work before publication. 

@dym 

Ars gratia artis vs monetization of a skill set is a debate that has gone on for a very long time. From my perspective, those who will not compromise their art for a sale are generally well fed. Those who need to sell their work to live are often torn in two emotionally.

Harlan Ellison was an established science fiction writer in the 1960s. He wrote the original screenplay for the Star Trek (original series) episode City on the Edge of Forever. Two different editor's rewrites and a final by Gene Roddenberry himself created the episode. Major differences led to animosity between Ellison and Roddenberry. Ellison has always maintained that his script was a better story, but its final form, which he is credited for, has been consistently voted the best episode of the series by Star Trek fans. So, Ellison hated the compromise, but was credited and paid for it and has been forced to accept the adoration of fans for decades.

Another artist was a painter and engineer. He worked for great families, governments, and anyone else who could pay. He became wealthy enough that, when a particular subject came alive in one of his portraits, he couldn't bear to part with the painting. Perhaps jealous that his own work (whether he loved the subject or the work itself) would never see the light of day, he kept it. Because he kept it, and then bequeathed it to his assistant, it garnered much praise and was acquired by Francis I of France, and has not lost its allure since. Thus the Mona Lisa now resides in the Louvre, because an uncompromising Leonardo da Vinci kept it with him until his death.

On philosophical merits, neither argument has the edge, making it one of the greatest unsolvable arguments in history. Since you have chosen not to compromise, I would ask you why you posed the question that you have in this thread. No judgment, just wondering if you know.

The simple answer is that the contest is looking to inspire and discover the next generation of writers, and touch as large an audience as they can to attract them. Hit that nerve and you will have a winning story.

Prate Gabble (Kent)

Posted by: @gideonpsmith

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So it's an interesting discussion because for me being a writer is a journey in humility. Not everyone likes my stuff. Even those pieces that do get accepted are not untouchable, it's standard practice that an editor then sends a marked up version for further work before publication. 

I never said I wasn't willing to hand my text over for additional editing by a publisher. On the contrary—I explicitly stated in my previous message that for the sake of first place in a contest or a decent royalty, I would easily cut the poetic prologue and so on. But there are two crucial nuances here: 1) without this prologue, my manuscript certainly will not become better; 2) there is an extremely slim chance that I will achieve anything with a inferior text.

And here is the core question—why should I mutilate my own text and destroy my authorial voice? What is there to feel ashamed for? Furthermore, if the impossible happened and I won first place with a mangled version, I would do everything in my power to later publish the untampered author's cut, as well as prevent similar interference in my other manuscripts, since I would then possess a degree of authority.

As for sales, I've already written about this—I am a good writer, but a terrible salesman. And I don't believe that simply reading advice on studying the market will ever turn me into a great seller. If it were that simple, everyone here would be living in luxury.

Posted by: @kent

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@dym 

 

The simple answer is that the contest is looking to inspire and discover the next generation of writers, and touch as large an audience as they can to attract them. Hit that nerve and you will have a winning story.

Prate Gabble (Kent)

In my opinion, the examples you cited have nothing to do with sacrifice. Harlan Ellison received royalties and fame. Da Vinci didn't starve and could afford any whim he fancied. Furthermore, Harlan Ellison was a writer, not a director—so his grievances were completely nonsensical. And if he was so drawn to the fame of a screenwriter and director, he could have easily printed his own original screenplay or tried getting hired as a director himself. Then we would have seen how that worked out for him. As far as I understand, Da Vinci also has more than just the Mona Lisa hanging in museums today. So what difference does it make where he kept or didn't keep his paintings until his death?

This bears no resemblance to my situation whatsoever.

And another thing—all these reflections and questions in this thread stem simply from a lack of adequate communication. These days, it seems as though all avenues for communication are wide open, yet in reality, there's nobody around to have a genuinely meaningful conversation with.

Posted by: @dym

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Posted by: @gideonpsmith

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So it's an interesting discussion because for me being a writer is a journey in humility. Not everyone likes my stuff. Even those pieces that do get accepted are not untouchable, it's standard practice that an editor then sends a marked up version for further work before publication. 

I never said...

...this thread stem simply from a lack of adequate communication...

well, I'm not going to argue about what you said you could or absolutely wouldn't do 

But my comment only references my experiences of writing and how this thread has made me reflect on it, and I wish you luck with your own journey.