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[Sticky] Martin's OPINION on the Unwritten Rules

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(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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Posted by: @ease

@writergirl0426 I don't think they strictly prefer any genre within "sci-fi and fantasy" although it feels like medium-hard to hard sci-fi stories do especially well.

Jody, like Dave before her, strives for a broad mix of subgenres. Ultimately the other judges decide, but they can only choose from stories she selects. The intention (if not the result) is no preference for subgenre.

 

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : September 16, 2023 6:58 am
WriterGirl0426
(@writergirl0426)
Posts: 70
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@ease Thanks - appreciate the offer. I've gone back over it, and verified the sci-fi and alternate future elements come in by the second paragraph, so I think the elements are enough to satisfy the criteria. But I appreciate your offer! I've already had a few beta reads, so I don't want to abuse the privelege of kindness.

smiley  

--Tracy

Tracy
V36 - SHM, SEMI-FINALIST!!!, HM, SHM
V37 - Q1:SHM --COVID INTERRUPTUS--
V40 - Q3: SHM

 
Posted : September 16, 2023 9:11 am
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 962
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This is a great thread, Martin! 

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : September 19, 2023 9:07 pm
(@annewilkins)
Posts: 1
New Member
 

I need some help. I got disqualified last quarter as I had the F word in there, once. I didn't know that was a no-go. I'm thinking about resubmitting without the F word, but my story also has the word "tits" in there, twice. I really don't want to take tits out, as it's really important to the story (makes the guy look like an asshole), but I don't want to be disqualified again. Do any of you have an opinion on this, do you think it might be ok with tits in it?

 

 
Posted : September 28, 2023 2:24 pm
Ellis Eden reacted
storysinger
(@storysinger)
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To put it bluntly, no. WotF's target audience is PG-13 and up. Let the children grow up before having to hear grown-up talk.

You can shock readers in other ways, subversive manipulation of emotive moments comes to mind.

 

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : September 28, 2023 2:55 pm
Kary English
(@karyenglish)
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Posted by: @annewilkins

I need some help. I got disqualified last quarter as I had the F word in there, once. I didn't know that was a no-go. I'm thinking about resubmitting without the F word, but my story also has the word "tits" in there, twice. I really don't want to take tits out, as it's really important to the story (makes the guy look like an asshole), but I don't want to be disqualified again. Do any of you have an opinion on this, do you think it might be ok with tits in it?

 

Hi, Anne,

Welcome to the forum!

Our publisher has said that he will not publish the f-bomb, full stop, which is why we've started DQing stories that use it. Other profanity is evaluated on a case by case basis. You will not be DQed for tits.

Send the story back without the f-bomb and we'd be happy to take another look. There's no black mark against you, and honestly, we won't even know which one was yours.

Cheers,

Kary English

WOTF Head Slusher

 

WOTF: 1 HM, 1 Semi, 2 Finalists, 1 Winner
Q2,V31 - Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!
Hugo and Astounding finalist, made the preliminary Stoker ballot (juried)
Published by Galaxy's Edge, DSF, StarShipSofa and TorNightfire

 
Posted : September 28, 2023 3:07 pm
storysinger
(@storysinger)
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smiley

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : September 28, 2023 3:09 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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Slushers have asked me to add this...

Please don't justify your text. That's when you make each line approximately the same width. Unless you're going for effect, please left justify, ragged right (meaning the right edge will vary for every line).

Yes, books are almost always justified; but publishers use trained layout people who can justify smoothly (and even they sometimes produce ugly results). The justification settings built into your word processor usually do an awful job of justification. Sometimes they leave awkward gaps between words. Other times they cram words so closely together that it's hard to tell where the word breaks are.

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : October 8, 2023 3:11 pm
(@aidanka)
Posts: 54
Bronze Member
 

Hi there,

thanks for the great post.

I have a question. IDK whether it was asked before or not. Do you know any interviews or sources where new judges talk about their preferences? I've read religiously every interview of David Farland just to be able to take part one time during his time. and now I am clueless about the new preferences of judges. I can't get WOTF book copies yet (As Amazon is charging outrageous prices for shipping to my country) and all the Zoom meetings are in the middle of the night where I live. I have tried to stay awake one time just to notice that we have different days here and in LA)). I know I sound like I am whining, but I am on a stressful 24x7 job (journalist).

Also, another question. Do you think we should send shorter stories to places such as Asimov, etc.? I get a lot of personal rejections with nice encouragement. But at the end of the day it's still a rejetion and I think length plays a role in that. But how am I supposed to write a nice story, with a good premise, interesting characters, and a storyline under 5k words?

 

Most of markets place under 5k word limit any way. So I send to places which accept longer works.

Thanks anyone if they were patient enough to read)

 

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 3:34 pm
Gideon Smith
(@gideonpsmith)
Posts: 517
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Posted by: @aidanka

 

I have a question. IDK whether it was asked before or not. Do you know any interviews or sources where new judges talk about their preferences?

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmelkj4wODo&t=2383s

 

Jody Lynn Nye speaks extensively about what she's looking for (generally, good fiction, with a spec element)

 

 

"...your motivations for wanting to write are probably complex. You may have a few great passions, you may want to be rich and famous, and you may need therapy."
- Dave Farland, Million Dollar Outlines

Writers of the Future:
2025 Q1: P Q2: WIP Q3: TBD Q4: TBD
2024 Q1: F Q2: HM Q3:SHM Q4: SHM
2023 Q1: RWC Q2: SHM Q3: SHM Q4: R
2022 Q4: R
Submissions to other markets:
2025: 19 submitted 0 acceptances
2024: 45 submitted 8 acceptances
2023: 74 submitted 13 acceptances
2022: 22 submitted 1 acceptance

2025 goals: a. New Novel b. New piece submitted/month c. 100 rejections

http://www.gideonpsmith.com

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 4:10 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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@gideonpsmith You beat me to it. Thank you!

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 4:30 pm
Gideon Smith reacted
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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Posted by: @aidanka

Also, another question. Do you think we should send shorter stories to places such as Asimov, etc.? I get a lot of personal rejections with nice encouragement. But at the end of the day it's still a rejetion and I think length plays a role in that. But how am I supposed to write a nice story, with a good premise, interesting characters, and a storyline under 5k words?

Please please please, do me two favors.

  1. Read this: Never Give Up! | Writers & Illustrators of the Future (writersofthefuture.com)
  2. Keep writing and keep submitting! A personal rejection is meant to encourage you to keep sending them stories.

You are likely the next Preston Dennett. Don't give up!

 

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 4:34 pm
(@aidanka)
Posts: 54
Bronze Member
 

thank you ? ? ? 

Posted by: @gideonpsmith

Posted by: @aidanka

 

I have a question. IDK whether it was asked before or not. Do you know any interviews or sources where new judges talk about their preferences?

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmelkj4wODo&t=2383s

 

Jody Lynn Nye speaks extensively about what she's looking for (generally, good fiction, with a spec element)

 

 

 

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 5:46 pm
(@aidanka)
Posts: 54
Bronze Member
 

Thank you, for you kind words, it means a lot. I am definitely going to check it out right now. Writing is really isolating. I love this community everyone is so helpful all the time.

Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

Posted by: @aidanka

Also, another question. Do you think we should send shorter stories to places such as Asimov, etc.? I get a lot of personal rejections with nice encouragement. But at the end of the day it's still a rejetion and I think length plays a role in that. But how am I supposed to write a nice story, with a good premise, interesting characters, and a storyline under 5k words?

Please please please, do me two favors.

  1. Read this: Never Give Up! | Writers & Illustrators of the Future (writersofthefuture.com)
  2. Keep writing and keep submitting! A personal rejection is meant to encourage you to keep sending them stories.

You are likely the next Preston Dennett. Don't give up!

 

 

 
Posted : October 31, 2023 5:54 pm
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
Posts: 962
Platinum Member
 

Posted by: @aidanka

But how am I supposed to write a nice story, with a good premise, interesting characters, and a storyline under 5k words?

I used to feel this way, too! Now I struggle to write anything longer than 5k. My suggestion is to read a lot of these shorter pieces with an eye as to how the writer gets all the information across. I will say that learning to write shorter is a good idea just from a practical standpoint - shorter stories cost editors less money Smile and as you've noticed, there are a lot more markets available if you can keep them under 5-6k. Some of my favorite shorter piece places are Apparition Lit and Seize the Press Magazine. But Martin is absolutely right (as per usual): if you're getting personals from a market like Asimov's, you're close. Editors don't have time to personalize responses - we only take that time when we really want to encourage the writer! Keep at it!

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : November 1, 2023 1:44 am
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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Shorter is easier to sell. It's so unfair!

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : November 2, 2023 6:57 am
(@aidanka)
Posts: 54
Bronze Member
 

Thanks for the tips; this summer and fall I did exactly that. I still continue to read widely. I have read around 40 short stories in genre magazines. Every year, it seems like they want shorter and shorter ? ?. Though I can squeeze in 6k short story for most of the magazines 4-5k is an ideal. However, my main issue is this - while I can squeeze a cozy ghost story or some other horror into 5k, to write SF seems unfathomable for me in that range. Just world-building will take half of the story IMHO. Maybe I am not as well read in short SF market, however, there were a lot of short SF short stories in the magazines that I read feeling like a visually impared person walking in a labyrinth. Sure I understood what the story and dialogue was about but I couldn't understand inwhat kind of world they were in. That's why I love Uncanny , or Clarkesworld stories most of them seem a bit longer. 

Posted by: @rschibler

Posted by: @aidanka

But how am I supposed to write a nice story, with a good premise, interesting characters, and a storyline under 5k words?

I used to feel this way, too! Now I struggle to write anything longer than 5k. My suggestion is to read a lot of these shorter pieces with an eye as to how the writer gets all the information across. I will say that learning to write shorter is a good idea just from a practical standpoint - shorter stories cost editors less money Smile and as you've noticed, there are a lot more markets available if you can keep them under 5-6k. Some of my favorite shorter piece places are Apparition Lit and Seize the Press Magazine. But Martin is absolutely right (as per usual): if you're getting personals from a market like Asimov's, you're close. Editors don't have time to personalize responses - we only take that time when we really want to encourage the writer! Keep at it!

 

 
Posted : November 6, 2023 11:04 am
RETreasure reacted
Gavin Ross
(@gfr)
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thx. Helpful stuff to a newbie for this particular contest/forum. 

 

 
Posted : November 29, 2023 8:43 am
Ellis Eden
(@ellis)
Posts: 111
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@annewilkins Hey, in a universe of words, and a universe of potential words, I bet you can find a way to say feck and titz without saying them directly. If you ever need inspiration, google "Shakespearian insults?" or "futuristic curses". I know very little of anything, but this helps me when I'm stuck.

As a side note, some of my favorite people in the world drop f-bombs relatively often, and some of the people I wish fire and brimstone upon never curse. Being bad has little to do with their language, and everything to do with how they behave. 

Good luck, writing comrade!

"Never tell me the odds!" -Han Solo

 
Posted : December 6, 2023 3:15 pm
Ellis Eden
(@ellis)
Posts: 111
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@martin-l-shoemaker Do I detect a note of sarcasm? LOL

"Never tell me the odds!" -Han Solo

 
Posted : December 6, 2023 3:17 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
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Posted by: @ellis

@martin-l-shoemaker Do I detect a note of sarcasm? LOL

 

Not purely sarcasm. I tend toward novelette length. I get wistful when I see how many markets there are for 4,000-word stories.

 

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : December 6, 2023 7:55 pm
Ellis Eden reacted
Ellis Eden
(@ellis)
Posts: 111
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@martin-l-shoemaker 4k seems purposefully cruel.

"Never tell me the odds!" -Han Solo

 
Posted : December 6, 2023 8:26 pm
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1453
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4k seems like a long flash story to me.

I think the shorter a story is, the more twist or wham-o is required in the ending, the last sentence. (And when the lights finally came on, I wasn't the only one. Everyone was a monster.)

As if stories are writing to that ending, not so much character growth or plot resolution.

Longer, and it switches. 6 - 10k maybe.
I find these the most satisfying because they have a blend of character, plot, and last line cymbal crash without requiring a twist to make me say, What!? Instead I say, Aaah. 

Above that, the journey becomes the destination. While the ending should satisfy, it's less urgent because of the longer journey to get there. Sharon Joss's story comes to mind. Arthur Manners's as well.

Career: 1x Win -- 2x NW-F -- 2x S-F -- 9x S-HM -- 11x HM -- 7x R
Like me: facebook/AuthorTJKnight

 
Posted : December 7, 2023 2:49 am
RETreasure
(@rschibler)
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Posted by: @tj_knight

I think the shorter a story is, the more twist or wham-o is required in the ending, the last sentence.

While there's some truth to this, there's also something to be said for a strong atmospheric or emotional experience. Some of my favorite short-short pieces are really about the emotional experience of the reader, of nesting a thought or moment deeply in our minds so it lingers. See "Over My Bones" by Dana Vickerson on the Apex Patreon or "Walking the Deep Down" by Michelle Denham on Apex Magazine or "I Am Lightning, Flashing Through the Frozen Sand" by Akis Linardos in Apparition Lit. None of these has a 'wham-0' ending or a twist, but all 3 create a strong atmosphere and emotional journey for readers. Dana does it in 250 words!

I've really fallen in love with the microfiction form (obviously since I created a magazine so I could keep reading them lol) and when all the words come together, it is the most powerful concoction imaginable. Reading slush for short-shorts (and I've read a LOT) I think pieces that work toward one final 'gotcha' ending tend to be less compelling and immersive. I think they can have character growth and plot resolution, but in short-shorts, this has to happen off the page instead of explicitly written out. (Dana's is my favorite example of this!)

V34: R,HM,R
V35: HM,R,R,HM
V36: R,HM,HM,SHM
V37: HM,SF,SHM,SHM
V38: (P)F, SHM, F, F
V39: SHM, SHM, HM, SHM
Published Finalist Volume 38
Pro’d out Q4V39
www.rebeccaetreasure.com

Managing Editor, Apex Magazine

 
Posted : December 10, 2023 1:46 am
crlisle and K. R. Queen reacted
babooher
(@babooher)
Posts: 229
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Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

No AI-generated stories. Period. Really, they’re bad stories that will never win anyway. You might use an AI story as a prompt and write your own story from it. But the text straight from the AI is a lousy story. All you’ll do is annoy the slush readers.

I don't know if you all have seen this: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/college-student-put-on-academic-probation-for-using-grammarly-ai-violation/ar-BB1iFK2M?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=73a9cab8b12f4e18b64a03d5b86c21e0&ei=33&fbclid=IwAR251LZLIhAZylJCc-KJhslCvd4HtAwQuwJgY-ZkVLx5tyWUietHENj_nQ8

Gist of the story: Girl used Grammarly and was accused of cheating in college. Now, I've read the story, and some of it seems a bit fishy to me, as in I don't buy the girl's story, but what if she's not lying? I've been running my prose through Grammarly as a first pass for grammar mistakes and typos. Generally, I'd recommend it or something similar for any writer. I liken skipping that kind of pass to not having grammar check or spellcheck on. But I don't ask it to generate content, and I often agree to disagree with it. This can of worms (or wyrms if you want a more speculative element) that is AI is definitely some new territory, but is WotF gonna kick out stories run through Grammarly and its ilk?

2012 Q4: R
2016 Q3: SHM
2019 Q2: HM, Q3: HM
2020 Q2: HM, Q4: SHM
2021 Q1: HM, Q2: SF, Q3: SHM, Q4: SHM
2022 Q1: SHM, Q2 RWC, Q4 RWC
2023 Q1: RWC Q2: SHM Q3:Nope Q4: WIP

 
Posted : February 23, 2024 6:36 pm
Sherri Morris
(@abeona)
Posts: 61
Bronze Star Member
 

Posted by: @babooher

I often agree to disagree with it

I use grammarly as you do.  Like you I don't always agree and dismiss the suggestions it makes.  Sometimes, the suggestions are grammatically blind to my word usage and will assume I meant a verb when I meant a noun.  In those cases, if I failed to dismiss the suggestion as I sometimes do when I'm in a hurry or tired, I could see those particular changes triggering AI recognition software.

 

 

 
Posted : February 23, 2024 11:18 pm
(@martin-l-shoemaker)
Posts: 2185
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Topic starter
 

Posted by: @babooher

Gist of the story: Girl used Grammarly and was accused of cheating in college. Now, I've read the story, and some of it seems a bit fishy to me, as in I don't buy the girl's story, but what if she's not lying? I've been running my prose through Grammarly as a first pass for grammar mistakes and typos. Generally, I'd recommend it or something similar for any writer. I liken skipping that kind of pass to not having grammar check or spellcheck on. But I don't ask it to generate content, and I often agree to disagree with it. This can of worms (or wyrms if you want a more speculative element) that is AI is definitely some new territory, but is WotF gonna kick out stories run through Grammarly and its ilk?

Personal side note (personal, so not aimed at you or anyone): I wouldn't use Grammarly. So I'm not the best expert here.

But main note: Go ahead and use it. That's not AI-generated content.

 

http://nineandsixtyways.com/
Tools, Not Rules.
Martin L. Shoemaker
3rd Place Q1 V31
"Today I Am Paul", WSFA Small Press Award 2015, Nebula nomination 2015
Today I Am Carey from Baen
The Last Dance (#1 science fiction eBook on Amazon, October 2019) and The Last Campaign from 47North

 
Posted : February 24, 2024 6:43 am
crlisle reacted
storysinger
(@storysinger)
Posts: 1545
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Does anyone ever get so frustrated with spell-checker they just turn it off?

There are times when I get caught re-writing a phrase so many times that I turn SC off so I can get back to the story.

Today's science fiction is tomorrow's reality-D.R.Sweeney
HM x5
Published Poetry
2012 Stars in Our Hearts
Silver Ships

 
Posted : February 24, 2024 6:45 am
Sherri Morris
(@abeona)
Posts: 61
Bronze Star Member
 

Posted by: @storysinger

Does anyone ever get so frustrated with spell-checker they just turn it off?

There are times when I get caught re-writing a phrase so many times that I turn SC off so I can get back to the story.

As a person who needs to equip my backspace key with a chastity belt or some kind of child safety lock, are you able to write continuously without self editing things such as typos?  That's a skill I would like to develop. 

I use Grammarly as my SC/GC in real time using their desktop app, with Scrivener.  I do have to turn it off at times because it's just too distracting.  One downside to it, as opposed to say the built in grammar checkers, is that in order to get rid of the underlined suggestions, you have to click on dismiss, which will only persist as long as the document stays open.  Once you close your editor it forgets that you dismissed that thing and you'll have to do it again.  So, I have to turn it off frequently.

 

 

 
Posted : February 24, 2024 8:15 am
Dustin Adams
(@tj_knight)
Posts: 1453
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@storysinger Word has trained me not to disobey.

I do have it off on my phone because yeah, I spent more time backspacing than typing because it changed things to what I didn't want.

Word just puts red lines under things then I can check them out.

Manual spell check?

Career: 1x Win -- 2x NW-F -- 2x S-F -- 9x S-HM -- 11x HM -- 7x R
Like me: facebook/AuthorTJKnight

 
Posted : February 25, 2024 2:46 am
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