Podcast

Transcript

John Goodwin (00:05): Hello, and welcome to the Writers and Illustrators of the Future Podcast. This is John Goodwin, your host. This podcast is dedicated to the aspiring writer and artist and will provide inspiration and tips from top professionals in the field. If you’ve been listening to this podcast or are new to it, I thank you very much. I’d also appreciate if you took a moment to follow it on whatever platform you used to listen to your podcasts.

Writers of Future is one of the longest running writing competitions in the world, now celebrating over four decades of providing helping hand as initially conceived by L. Ron Hubbard. And this past year, volume 42, was the year that we broke 1,000 writers and artists celebrated in the volumes that were all published. So that was quite the milestone that we’re very, very chuffed about. I’m here today with Arthur Haywood. Arthur has had an amazing journey as an artist, which I wanted to have him share with other aspiring artists. He was an illustrator winner two years ago and published in Writers of the Future volume forty. He’s an illustrator and muralist and street artist. His work celebrates the wonder of stories. So with that, welcome Arthur.

Arthur Haywood (01:13): Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me as a guest. I’m looking forward to catching up.

John Goodwin (01:18): Yeah. And it’s I think your story is really important for other aspiring artists or people who know artists like yourself that want to know, what do I do to express my creativity and to be able to generate and grow it. So to begin with, just try to provide an overview of your journey as an artist. Starting when you broke into your mom’s lipstick and drew all over the wall or whatever you did.

Arthur Haywood (01:50): I do remember drawing over the wall, but I think it was crayons, not lipstick. So it was washable. But I got more into art as a teenager. I was on a Trading Spaces teen version for a reality TV show with my neighbor, Ray. And one of the prizes for being on that show was getting graffiti class because his room got transformed into a skate park by a graffiti artist named Pose 2. His real name is Daniel Hopkins.

And so, I got more into art in middle school, going to that graffiti class downtown at the Hawthorne Community Center. This is all public art. It was in a public space at a community center. So it was all legal. No one was getting arrested. And at that space, we would have barbecues during the summer, like street art festivals on these two walls where street artists would come in, do graffiti. It was one of my first experiences with public art.

In Philadelphia, there’s a lot of public art in terms of murals around the city. I think there are like over five thousand in the city at this point. So, I was exposed to it. But being able to participate in it through the graffiti class really got me engaged in seeing how art can be shared with others in a public way and a way that can reach them. I got so many more interactions with people in the community that would thank me as one of the artists for creating the art. And a lot of times, just doing commissions, you don’t always get thanked. It’s just transactional. And so there was a real dialogue between the artists and the community that I was able to be a part of.

And following that graffiti class in high school, even throughout college, I would stay in contact with some of my friends from that graffiti class. One artist named Nose Go, his real name is J.S. Goodwin. And he was doing a lot of art beyond that graffiti class, but also with the Mural Arts program in Philadelphia. And I ended up interning for him during one of my summers while studying in college at the Maryland Institute College of Art (MICA).

And I got more exposed to the Mural Arts program and how graffiti is not only street art, but it’s also for creating a message. He was doing a mural for an Elementary School. And so that’s why I got more connected with the Mural Arts program. And at the same time, I was studying illustration at Micah and developing my own portfolio. And so by the time I ended up graduating from MICA I ended up studying at another school for traditional arts, here in Philadelphia after I graduated.

And then following that, another traditional art school called Grand Central Atelier in New York. So after I finished all of my studies, I was, still interning with Mirror Arts, but I also had a portfolio and got requested as an assistant with the Mirror Arts program in 2018. After I finished all my studies. And it was for a mural that were they were doing for a library. And this artist named Wale Oye Shade. He did a lot of art for Black Panther in terms of costume designing. He designed it and I was one of the assistants on that.

And so, while I was doing all my own personal artwork, my illustrations for like books that I was doing and book cover designs, I was also assisting with the Mural Arts Program for a number of murals, also a mural that Amy Sherald, the artist who painted Michelle Obama, designed. And because I had a portfolio of my own personal work too and an interest in creating murals, I was able to share that and got considered to do my own murals that I designed and painted.

And that led to me applying for a fellowship. It was a scholarship in Paris called the Harry Hale Woolley Scholarship. It was an art residency originally for nine months, but I ended up being able to stay for about a year and a half, around two years, while I was there to create more of my own murals to encourage students to read. So one thing led to another and fortunately I’m back in the Philadelphia area now, continue to do public art murals as well as illustrations, book covers, and book related art as well too, as well as my own children’s book. So it really developed from, staying connected to my own, building my own portfolio and also being able to grow with the community that I was surrounded with.

John Goodwin (05:52): That’s an amazing story. So break that apart there and some of the things that go into making this, because this is the Writers and Illustrators of the Future podcast. So, the idea is to provide inspiration and tips from top professionals in the field, and you’re rapidly bringing yourself up to that, into those ranks, into those rarefied ranks of top professionals with what you do. And there’s some misconceptions that I’ve had that you’ve definitely made me wonder, like the whole thing on graffiti. So I’ll get into that a little bit later, but first of all, I wanted to address your support system. I think that’s something that’s really important that artists need to, I guess they need to have, they need to really understand the importance of a support system in making a career.

So for yourself, you definitely have… when I met your father and your mother when you came out having won the contest, I was wow, what an ideal scene for an artist to have parents like you have. So I imagine also you’ve got similar … an environment around you which grants you that ability to be an artist. So, tell me about that fact and the importance of having a support system as an artist.

Arthur Haywood (07:16): Yeah, like you say, I’m definitely very blessed to come from a very supportive family. And, both my parents, in terms of that support, have given, me and my siblings, my sisters, our freedom to be able to express and pursue our passions. And beyond that, in terms of how the morals they’ve instilled in us, has created a sense of guidance in terms of how to move about the world, in terms of being able to share kindness with others and use that as the basis for my interactions.

No, fortunately, my parents were able to provide us with unconditional love. And that has influenced all my interactions, both personally and professionally. And definitely has influenced the community that I’m in now in terms of the people that I work with. It’s founded in reciprocation. It’s founded in kindness. And the people I’ve noticed who don’t align with that vision filter themselves out. And so that community can really be guided by one’s own, like his output or attitude, as well as just karma, what you give, normally comes back to you, but not always in the ways you expect. And so very fortunate to be in a community and a country, a city that really embraces art. there’s a lot of murals in the city. There’s a lot… there’s still an art school that is running. Moore College of Art where I teach at in the city. And so there’s definitely a support system here and I’m grateful to be part of it. And it’s very beneficial to have that support system as an artist.

John Goodwin (08:45): Like your mom’s an educator.

Arthur Haywood (08:47): No, my mom was a lawyer, a legal deputy with Independent Blue Cross. She’s now retired and she was a lawyer and now she’s doing a lot more volunteering, and she’s been president of the school board, now president of the library.

John Goodwin (09:02): That’s what I was saying. Something with education. She was very much involved.

Arthur Haywood (09:07): Mm-hmm. Both of my parents. And as a career, she was a lawyer with Independence Blue Cross. And throughout her career, and my dad also was a lawyer, now a state senator. And throughout both of their careers, they were very involved in education and the parts of education for children. my grandmother was a speech therapist. So I’m sure that was also, influence in my maternal grandmother also did a lot of tutoring for education as well, too.

And so, I would say that importance of education was very much exposed to me throughout growing up. And me being it, we used to have the summer reading challenges like on the board near the kitchen to note how many books we would read during the summers. And so I definitely say I was very exposed to the excitement of reading and the importance of it. And so through my own interest, I was a very avid reader as a child. The first reason I picked up Harry Potter was because of the book cover. It made me want to escape into that book in that world. And me being an avid reader and loving art too, I was able to combine both of the interests that excited me the most to be able to create art as illustrations, to engage young people in reading, knowing that there’s a literacy gap. my parents are very involved in the school board and I was exposed to the fact that a lot of students who don’t know how to read drop out of school by a certain grade because they can’t do their homework.

And so there’s a very real need for that connection to engage young people in reading. And, my way out personally was engaged with reading, was through the art, the illustrations and also the literature. And so I was able to combine the two things I love the most through illustration and public art for schools to engage students in reading. I read these books and I still read YA personally anyway. So I was just creating the art that I love to make and sharing with an audience that can connect and benefit from it.

But yeah, definitely I was very exposed to the importance of literacy education throughout my childhood as well too, through my mother and father. And my dad runs literacy camps as a state senator. a lot more, you we’re not gonna stay on here for forever, but as a overview, a few of the highlights.

John Goodwin (11:28): That’s great. I’m curious, because we talked about you’ve got your immediate family, your parents and your siblings. Now, have you had to deal with any issues like with other teachers, educators, fellow classmates who just were abusive or that gave you grief and that you had to deal with? I’m just curious that came up and how you dealt with that.

Arthur Haywood (11:54): Yeah, that definitely has come up in terms of interactions with teachers, making discouraging comments, other colleagues as well. But I feel like my understanding of self-worth is grounded in knowing that my value is inherent. it can’t be added to, it can’t be subtracted from. So nothing from the outside can really change my own personal value. And so I wouldn’t really let any exterior energy divert me from the path that I was already set on. Like there’s no way that anyone else can determine my value. It’s inherent from birth. And so a lot of those comments would end up filtering and those people would end up filtering themselves out of my life so that the people who can actually reciprocate the energy, the art that I’m actually putting out, can be there to support it. So I view a lot of that as a noise and it’s a filtering system where if I don’t reciprocate the negative energy by encouraging it, that energy filters itself out. The noise cancels itself out. And so a lot of those people I would essentially ignore and continue doing what I was doing, continue sharing it with people who actually may be interested. there definitely times where it’s always not going to be everyone, but I would just continue sharing and the people who actually are there to support it would arise to support it. So I view it as a filtering system, but there’s a lot of noise out there and it’s really just noise.

John Goodwin (13:33): Okay. Yeah, that’s that’s a rare quality that you have. So I’m trying to figure out how to make you real so okay, this dude is like so not like my world.

Arthur Haywood (13:46): Yeah. Well, thank you so much. That’s very kind to say. I think we’re in age where a lot of people are searching.

The currency has shifted from money to validation and people are chasing the currency of validation, not even getting money from it. And so I feel like that is very superficial and also conditional. And I said, fortunately I’ve been able to be exposed to unconditional love through my parents, also through religion and that’s been the basis for how I operate through life, knowing that my value is unconditional. It can’t be added to, can’t be subtracted from, it just is. And there’s no rules for this life. Hopefully people will live it how they want to. I guess I don’t have my, still Drake fans out there, YOLO (You Only Live Once), I guess.

John Goodwin (14:38): So all right. So then with respect to how you’re able to continue like you’ve had your art, you’ve had your dream and your goal, and it’s been something that obviously has pulled you along in your life because you’re very much locked and loaded on your art from what I’ve observed since I’ve known you now the last couple of years. So I guess we’ll go now to the Illustrator Future contest. So how did you learn about it?

How many times did you enter? Let’s just do those two questions first.

Arthur Haywood (15:13): Yeah, I learned about the contest through another artist at the Philadelphia Sketch Club. I think I participated in the first Illustration, I forget which number it was. It was in I think twenty nineteen, twenty eighteen maybe. And one of the artists exhibiting, Michelle Lockamy, was also a winner, a grand prize winner in the Illustrators of the Future contest. And through talking to her at the reception, she mentioned the contest.

And I was in a place where I was revising my portfolio to transition from historical imagery. I was doing a book about scholars from the Library of Alexandria in Egypt. And I was transitioning my portfolio into the fantasy genre that I’ve always been, inspired by since a 12-year-old reading Harry Potter. And as I was revising my portfolio, noting that it fit the fantasy genre of the Contest, she suggested the Contest and entering.

And so I continued to add to my portfolio and it was submit my book cover samples to the contest. Even some of the book covers that were published, I submitted as well too. And submitted, I think about seven times total. And fortunately, I was able to improve with each submission in terms of mood, content, quality, detail, emotion, many other ways too.

And to develop with other commissions along that, through that journey and very fortunate to be selected as a winner and to be able to meet the other artists and illustrators that I’m still connected with.

John Goodwin (16:46): That’s great. How many times did you have to enter the contest before you won?

Arthur Haywood (16:51): Yeah, I think it was around seven times, maybe off, but it was around that number.

John Goodwin (16:56): Okay. So now when you came out for the workshop, what are some… ’cause it’s been a couple of years now… so what were some of the highlights that you recall from your week out here in Hollywood?

Arthur Haywood (17:08): Yeah. One of the highlights was definitely being able to connect with the community of artists and writers there and to, learn about their journeys. But also to benefit from what excited them and their own aesthetics, their own writing as well too. And that was very influential for me, not just from the winners, but the broader community, the judges. And, one of the highlights from the workshop was the portfolio review. Is very individualized in terms of the feedback.

And some of the feedback that really connected to me was the feedback to embrace my own style, my own vision in terms of what excited me most, what I love to paint the most. And a lot of the judges were commenting on the fact that I paint a lot of stars with bright colors and encouraging me to continue doing that, I guess, as an artistic signature.

And the encouragement to pursue what I already, love to paint has attracted a lot of art directors and other clients to hire me for commissions. And so I think that was some of the greatest feedback was to be able to continue embracing what I love to paint, what I love about art. And I’ve noticed the benefits of it in terms of being considered for commissions. So I think those, those are the main highlights from the workshops that I can be specific about.

John Goodwin (18:33): Yeah. Was Bea Jackson there your year?

Arthur Haywood (18:36): Yeah, she was another children’s book illustrator as well, too. So very glad to be connected.

John Goodwin (18:42): Yeah, so she’s just talking about unique art styles ’cause she created like her own style of art. She’s a grand prize winner. When she won, she was from the projects in Detroit, and so when she when she won it was she’d never flown before, it was first time coming out and it was it was quite the thing, but she was a grand prize winner that year. And she’s the one that did that one book about that little girl that saw that big portrait of Michelle Obama and has been very successful. But she’s got her total own unique art style.

And I look at you got a very unique art style too, that’s very much Arthur Haywood. she’s Bea Jackson, Brittany Jackson. And I think that’s one thing that’s important too. Like with the with the Illustrators of the Future, if you’re an artist, you don’t have you need to do Disney, you need to do Marvel, you need to do a certain style. You don’t have that. If you look at any Writers of the Future book, especially since volume thirty, when we started doing the art as color pages also in the book, there’s all types of styles.

We’ve had winners from all over the world with their unique styles of either China or Vietnam or Central America or South America or Africa, it’s just, it’s creativity that we celebrate with Illustrators of the Future. So getting to the awards gala that we had that night, the final night there, and you’re…. I remember looking at watching your mom and dad as you were giving a speech and they were they were just so puffed out and proud, watching their son up there doing acceptance speech. So I’ve talked to a lot of people about that awards Gala, but what about for you is the most memorable?

Arthur Haywood (20:49): Yeah, the gala was definitely very memorable and being connected and reunited with family at the gala was, very meaningful for me. It became more so a celebration of what we’ve accomplished together through the journeys throughout life as opposed to just the award that I was receiving. And it became, a group celebration. And I feel like art in a way, it is a way to convey emotions, but it’s also a way to connect people together. Art acts like furniture in a way, creates a space for people to be able to dialogue or have a connection through. And so that Gala transformed from just, an award that I was receiving to a connection that I was able to share with my family members there, the people who supported, also virtually as well too throughout the journey. And even for that event, people who were there at the event. And it became more so a connection that was shared. And so I think that was the most meaningful. happiness is a feeling. It’s not an award, a monetary net worth. And I feel like that connection was one of the most special things I was able to receive.

John Goodwin (22:08): Right. Are you still in touch with any of the winners, writer or artists or any of the judges?

Arthur Haywood (22:14): Yeah, there’s a Discord that we have. So some people still respond, some people do not. But people can come and go as they please, I guess. But yeah, a few of the people who are still able to be responsive, I still have contact with. I normally send out the New Year’s messages. If you respond, you’re still on the list. If not, maybe I’ll see you on the Discord, you’ll pop up in the future.

But yeah, I definitely stay in contact with some of the people and recommended a few of my colleagues for opportunities, illustration opportunities, for commissions that I’ve done. They ask recommendations and I tell the art directors to consider some of the other winners. And, things develop slowly over time for people who are, close friends, it’s always that way. It’s not like twenty-four seven, this wasn’t that way fifty years ago. Friendship has not really changed.

John Goodwin (23:13): Yeah. Have you run into any other fellow winners at various conventions or projects you’ve been doing?

Arthur Haywood (23:21): Not yet. I did see Bea Jackson last year in 2025 for a children’s book convention she was doing in Philadelphia. It was an African-American children’s book fair. And I got her new book that she created. the first one she has written and illustrated, signed by her, and was able to be introduced to a lot of other illustrators at the convention. Some, a few that I met before. Jamar Nicholas I had known since I used to work at the cafeteria at Arcadia University, but he’s an illustrator. So I had known him for a while, but he also had his comic book on display. So it was a really great community to be connected with and a few other writers and illustrators that I met. And yeah, I think that’s the only other judge or winner that I’ve actually seen personally since the event.

John Goodwin (24:12): All right. So now the subject of graffiti. So I’ve had this… We talked about this before because we were on the podcast the day after the awards event. You were there. I interviewed both you and your father, which was a real fun interview. Such a nice man. But just the whole subject of graffiti, because I’ve got this concept of graffiti is a bad thing, but then you talk about graffiti. Graffiti, you’re okay. So maybe I’ve got one definition which is not the correct one. Because I think of graffiti, I think of the guys come around and tag. I look at, I think of graffiti as tagging and it’s not the same thing. So explain, explain to me a little bit so I understand there’s something like tagging graffiti, mural arts, like how these things, what are the definitions so that I and the people that are listening can understand, okay, so here’s what it is.

Arthur Haywood (25:20): Yeah, I think just as you were describing that confusion around it is because there are not really any strict boundaries. It’s art. it’s not that objective it’s subjective. And I think a lot of graffiti has been just public art that has been illegal. And a lot of what’s considered the mural is what is legal public art. There are different styles, of course, too, in terms of the graffiti, like you said, some of it was more of just the hand styles, which was just more of like the tagging that you mentioned. Mostly letters and words have been associated with the term of graffiti. But there are plenty of graffiti artists who paint portraits, different little cartoon characters and things like that. And a lot of that’s transitioned into being commissioned and funded as public art too in spaces that are legal, and people are not getting arrested for it.

And I think at the basis of it, graffiti like any other art form is just expression, another way for people to express themselves through line, color, and I guess if you want to include the performance, there are normally festivals, things like that. So normally it’s broader than just the individual art. normally there are festivals that the art is part of as well, too. But it’s a very broad term, it’s subjective.

John Goodwin (26:44): So with you got somebody like Banksy, who’s very, very famous. He’s a total mystery of like who’s Banksy and then there’s articles, okay, we’re investigating to find who Banksy is. Okay, Banksy is blah blah. And then I’ve got a friend who’s a photographer who photographs Banksy and his projects when it’s happening. He said, No, that’s not him. it’s Banksy is definitely, he’s got his thing that he does and he’s got that mystery around him. But his murals or his graffiti is, it’s amazing how much money it goes for now and what people will do to protect it once he puts it up there. Now all over the world. It’s crazy. So have you met him?

Arthur Haywood (27:34): I’ve never met him. I’m aware of his work. I remember I used to have his Graffiti World book that I got when I was in high school taking the graffiti classes. And so I’ve seen him, I’ve known of him since then through that book. his art is very cool. But in terms of that transition, I think you realize that once sometimes art goes for a certain value, it just gets viewed as a stock, and people are just viewing it as an investment, and that stock can continue to increase over time. And so it seems like the Banksy category seem to move into that area where people are not just viewing it as something they’re walking by because it’s sold for a certain amount of money. And then a lot of people are viewing it as a stock, like as an investment. And that seems to describe some of that transition that you mentioned. But I think it’s already cool. Some of it’s evocative as social commentary. But I don’t know that much about it personally. I haven’t really stayed too updated with the graffiti art since really high school, but I’m definitely aware of his work. Some of the changes in terms of how it’s being collected.

John Goodwin (28:44): Yeah, you’ve got like you’re talking about that the value increasing, like you’ve got Frazetta, his Death Dealer and some of those paintings here, sold for was it twelve million dollars or something, it was something crazy that it went to an auction where it’s at that point now becomes a thing of value, long after his passing. Now, you said graffiti class. So there’s classes that are actually called graffiti art, graffiti class?

Arthur Haywood (29:12): Yeah, so the class that I was taking was essentially a graffiti class. And the funny backstory to it is that the instructor opposed to, he initially was doing like a mural in the city and he was called by some news station saying that I think he was doing some teaching. He said, Yeah, I teach. And then so they got commissioned or asked to be to start teaching a graffiti class in the city.

And so that’s how that graffiti class started. It was just Saturdays. I think it was maybe only three or four hours. We would start out just drawing in our sketchbooks and being able to transition the sketchbook designs to painting with spray paint. And I remember I used to have to do thumb exercises because my thumb would always get so tired trying to push down the spray can for as long as I needed to get the paint out.

So I was in the backyard doing thumb exercises to be able to maintain enough pressure. But it was a great way to meet other artists. There’s definitely a community like a B Boy Barbecue, it was called where they had like other artists, musicians, like the Roots would normally perform there once a summer while the artists were painting. And so it was a broader community I was part of. And now he runs that same festival out of San Diego, California, ’cause he moved. But, it’s definitely a great community to be a part of since I was a teenager. And I still stay in touch with Pose too, and he’s still like one of my good friends. So definitely great to have another role model in the life as well too.

John Goodwin (30:53): So now you talked about legal versus illegal on doing graffiti. So define what makes something legal and how one goes about it, if there if there are a muralist is that the pretty much the same thing being a street muralist and a graffiti? Is that like interchangeable terms?

Arthur Haywood (31:14): Interchangeable at this point. everyone’s gonna have their own opinion when what someone calls it. You can leave that up to the critics and you can call it whatever you want personally. But everyone’s gonna have their own opinion what to call something. So it’s definitely interchangeable. And I think for a lot of the commissions, there are their organizations more now with the internet than in the past. in the Philadelphia area, it’s a bit more organized because there’s a Mural Arts Program that uses a lot of the government and sometimes private funding to be able to fund commissioned public art as well as education initiatives that are associated with public associated with public art. And so being able to get in contact with some of those art.

So they had definitely commissioned recently some new, seeing public commissions, public spaces by artists who have done a lot of graffiti. This artist named Cornbread. He was one of the first graffiti writers I think ever, and he’s from the Philadelphia area. They’re now doing a Cornbread mural right now. And so the same style is the graffiti, is a lot of the imagery on that what’s gonna be for that design. And it’s interchangeable, for how you identify it in terms of graffiti or street art or public art, is more so if it’s commissioned or not, can be the determining factors, if somebody’s gonna go to jail for it.

But yeah, in terms of finding the commissions, it’s a lot more communities now on the internet. There are different mural directories that you can become a part of to submit your portfolio.

John Goodwin (32:54): You search mural directory, is that where…, what do you search for to be able to find these projects?

Arthur Haywood (33:00): Yeah. So I think if you search mural directory on Google, you probably would be, a lot of options would show up. There are a few different mural directories I’ve been a part of in the past. some of them I became aware of through having done a mural and then people reaching out to me in terms of asking me to be a part of that directory. But a couple of ones that come to mind WeScover was one that I was on. And there was, I forget, if you search it, then more will show up.

But with the Mural Arts Program in Philadelphia, that’s a very organized enterprise and organization to be able to provide commissions for public artists. And so, fortunately, me being in the city is a bit easier in terms of finding that community. But worldwide, there are like these work mural directories for people commissioning artists to do murals around the world.

And you can do a mural and then have it installed in another country, ship it there and have other people install like wallpaper. So there are really no boundaries, in terms of space to be able to do the art to find the connection. But I think through doing some of the art and then sharing it, a lot of the people who are looking for artists doing that same style or the same way of creating or for the specific public space, they can connect to it and ask you, invite you to join their collective. I’m sure there are a lot more out there than I even know of.

John Goodwin (34:34): Right. So now you made a comment like you can go on as wallpaper. So I’ve got this idea that what you’re doing when you do graffiti, you’ve got the spray can, which I’m just saying now because you said you had to do drills to be able to hold down the nozzle. I thought it was also big paint brushes. But then you said, as wallpaper. So how does that work? What is that?

Arthur Haywood (34:59): Yeah, so the process I’ve been using for a lot of the public art that’s large scale, like beyond four by four feet. Like I recently did a mural for the Tiger Woods Learning Center in West Philadelphia. And I think that painting is probably about over 45 feet wide. And I think it’s about seven feet tall, but it was broken into sections, by I think five foot sections in terms of how the cloth was cut. And I painted on each individual cloth and the cloth ended up being installed at the site on aluminum like wallpaper. The cloth is, very thin. And so you can just use a strong glue on the back of it to adhere to the surface. it makes it a lot easier. You can just paint inside no matter what the weather or climate is like. And you could, if you want to ship it to another country, you just roll it up and have somebody else install it at the site for you.

So the process of creating public art has become very mobile at this point. It’s not like Michelangelo having to look up at the ceiling, breaking a neck. It’s become much more mobile with technology at this point.

John Goodwin (36:10): I get it. So now is it still when you create that forty foot long sequence or that art there, is it also done with spray paint or do you do is it a brush.

Arthur Haywood (36:23): Yeah. the public art I’ve been doing now has been for interior place settings. And so I’ve been able to use oil paint. And I think for that the Cobbs Creek mural for the Tiger Woods Learning Center, I use oil paint for all the portraits and the figures, and then I use acrylic for the clothing and for the background, just in terms of economy saved, time money, but also some time in terms of being able to just be able to paint over areas more quickly.

But I can get more detail with oil paint. So I prefer to use oil paint. If it’s an interior setting, there’s no need to worry about the temperature deteriorating the paint. So if I have the opportunity to use oil paint, that’s normally what I use.

John Goodwin (37:08): I get it. So now scaling. So I mentioned before about Banksy, then we talked a little about Frazetta as well. Like Frazetta’s paintings, which you look at and see, my gosh, that’s amazing. But that painting might be twelve inches tall by eight inches wide. Sometimes these are really small when you get some of that detail stuff, but then gets blown up with the prints. But now you’re doing something that’s two X, three X, four X, even five X, the real size of whatever it is that you’re painting. So how do you do that? How do you work out scaling?

Arthur Haywood (37:48): It varies. I think there was one painting that I did for a suburban station. It’s a train station. And for the subway entrance, they just wanted to do aluminum panel prints for the walls of that entrance. And so what I ended up doing was to paint the individual portraits at a smaller scale. I don’t think the portraits were taller than about three inches and it ended up being blown up after it was scanned in to a final print of over, I think it was over three feet, I guess the portrait of two feet, but the entire panels were probably 10 feet by 20 feet. And so that’s one method is just to scan the image at like the… You’re talking about the prints being scaled up. I’ve done that in the past, but also I’ve done the method where the design, they normally make a digital design, and that design can be printed onto the cloth. And so it’s much more direct in terms of the transfer, in terms of you don’t have to redraw it. You can pretty much print out a faded version of that design directly onto the cloth and paint over it. And whether that be a drawing that I’m painting over, whether that be a mockup of photos that I’m painting over, it’s much more direct with technology at this point, fortunately.

John Goodwin (39:16): I got so that’s how you can handle and make sure the proportions you don’t end up with like a nose that’s all of a sudden really small and the eyes are really large.

Arthur Haywood (39:26): Exactly. With technology there is no more excuse for that. You’re not getting away with that anymore.

John Goodwin (39:33): So how does a person, like do you need a lucky break or do you just need to start show portfolios? Or you need to look, find your own wall, and do it so people can say, who did this wall? so how does one make a break into this industry?

Arthur Haywood (39:49): There are no rules to it. I recall like some of the artistic advice I was sharing in the past was just to, like spend as much time in a healthy way, not 24/7. The balance is important. But spend as much time as possible towards developing the skills that you want to use to create the art that you want to create. And then to be able to share that art with a community that you think would connect or resonate with that message.

And to have a message that also resonates with you that you’re sharing and painting about. And what I’ve noticed is that the level of support can change, but the level of support that you’re gonna receive can grow. I notice a lot of people and organizations, if they connect with a message, they support it in the ways that they can. And that level of support can change and grow over time. And that community can grow over time.

And so I think those are the most essential things in terms of principles, to just be able to share that art. People you think are gonna connect with it, and the people who do connect with it are gonna be able to support it in the ways that they can and it can grow over time. And there are, different ways to do that depending on settings, situations that people are in. But being able to share. Whether the community that you’re directly in, the broader community online, there are people out there looking for what you have to offer.

John Goodwin (41:14): Yeah, exactly.

Arthur Haywood (41:15): It can take time to find that alignment, but it grows it can definitely grow over time.

John Goodwin (41:21): Now one thing that’s come up as a problem for some artists or maybe many artists is the subject of AI art, generative AI art specifically. So it doesn’t seem like that would be a particular threat to you doing graffiti or mural arts on a big wall. I can’t imagine how you’re gonna have some, here comes this walking robot and starts spray painting on a wall or something. So how have you noticed any impact on your art?

Arthur Haywood (42:00): Yeah, it’s an interesting irony. As you think about the value of AI going up or interest in AI going up, that also means that the interest and value of traditional art is also going up at that same rate because in rarity, it’s a scarcity at that point, like a stock. if something is scarce, the value of it goes up. And so it’s an interesting dynamic where a lot of digital artists are transitioning into becoming traditional artists because a lot of the interest in AI has increased. So they’re finding more interest for handmade art in terms of illustrations, book covers, things like that. So it’s a very interesting dynamic to that and actually is beneficial to the traditional artists over time.

And so to me, I don’t feel it is directly influencing the type of art that I create. there’s always gonna be some form of new technology out there, but I find it a very ironic and interesting dynamic to see how the two balance each other in terms of and traditional art that be can be collected as an original and go up exponentially as a stock, like we were talking about with Banksy, other artists as well too, over time, that AI can’t really do.

Like an NFT, that was very popular for a while, but it reached a point of diminishing returns. And the value of traditional art, continues to go up exponentially over years. Think about how the value of what the Mona Lisa is now. And so it’s a very interesting dynamic. one is more of diminishing returns as like a short term goal. Others for the traditional art, can potentially continue to increase for a much longer period of time.

You do see a lot more AI being introduced in terms of creating designs. There’s still people who print out full colored, mural designs and put that up on the wall, like wallpaper. You do the same with illustration. So I do see the influence of it, some people creating, mock-ups using AI and then having people hand paint them. So there’s definitely an influence. It’s a tool.

We still use autocorrect on the phones and that is an AI tool that people have adapted to. And I think the philosophical question will be, if it creates more time for people to, if there’s people don’t have to spend as much time doing things as they had to in the past, what would they want to do with that time? If you have more time, could you potentially be doing something more with it? And so we’ve adapted to a lot of tools, that would that have been placed in society in the past. And so I think that will be a question for people, how would they want to use their time?

And also I guess, ecological ways to go about making sure that it’s not harming the environment in terms of boundaries and restrictions. But artwise, those are the few of my observations.

John Goodwin (45:07): In terms of now when you did the workshop, there’s various essays that L. Ron Hubbard wrote on the subject of art. And I know when I interviewed Brittany Jackson, Bea Jackson, for her, I think the essay was called “Art More About,” where she said that “art is a quality of communication,” which for her she thinks with and applies to all the art that she does. Are there any L. Ron Hubbard articles that particularly, struck you as wow, that’s pretty cool?

Arthur Haywood (45:49): Yeah, for me, the Personal Integrity essay that he wrote, I definitely resonated with in terms of I forget the exact quote, but mentioning for people like ourselves to decide for ourselves what is like meaningful or important to us. And I think the core of that is to be able to form an opinion. It’s especially in this we’re talking about AI, this technological age where people are not even trusting their own opinions. They’re going to a Chat GPT to give them their opinions.

And it’s ironic in this age of self-autonomy where people are proclaiming self-autonomy and freedom of speech for them to delegate their freedom of speech to a Chat GPT to tell them what they think. Do you need someone to tell you what you like? No. And then why would you proclaim that you need freedom of speech and then go to Chat GPT to tell you what you like? So I think that idea of people being able to form an opinion is so essential now. There’s so many people who are in this cancel culture, canceling themselves, afraid to even voice an opinion and being limited to fit in to the status quo. And it’s just why would you fit in when you can stand out? That was the message for a lot of the stars of Philadelphia mural I did for the Tiger Woods Learning Center. And a lot of my other illustrations and paintings are about people shining their light in their own way. And I think for people to get back to being secure enough to be able to voice an opinion is important. I think that article really speaks to that in terms of the personal integrity, people being able to form an opinion and be able to stick to it. When did insecurity become the standard?

John Goodwin (47:28)

So the whole thing of being able to look and see what you see and know what you know and then be true to yourself. And I know, that for me like why I really wanted to have you on as a guest. Because I know your integrity as an artist is a very strong point that I wanna be able to share with others. So that I can understand that the desire they feel a need to compromise or skip corners and not do the full thing is you’re doing yourself a disservice. And at some point you look around and you see it looks the criminal, the shyster, these guys, they get away with it. They don’t get away with anything. You’ve got media tends to validate that by putting so much attention on the crook. And you’ve got movies, that Hollywood validates the criminal mentality and so you’ve got a scene now where it’s not a crime if you don’t get caught, is a mentality. And so as it applies to art, people will come back and argue the point, yeah, well I still need to eat, and so…

Arthur Haywood (48:47): I definitely resonate with what you just said in terms of it being very limiting. That can work in the short term, in terms of getting attention and being able to monetize on that attention, but that’s very short term. That’s not what people are trying to do for their entire life, trying to see what they can get away with. And that’s very limiting to be limited to that, as opposed to being able to embrace and express what actually interests you.

You can develop a lot more on what you’re actually passionate about over a longer period of time than being limited to just trying to see what you can get away with. And so I think those are a few of the distinctions that I resonate with considering what you just said. There’s a lot more freedom in being able to express freely than being limited to just trying to fit into a box. Change over time, but that’s much of a short term goal.

John Goodwin (49:43): Now, in terms of monetary, ’cause it is a fact that as an artist you still need to be able to put bread on the table and have a roof over your head, I know some artists will get into, “I got paid for it.” Getting paid for it equals success when there’s no viability to that. So some guy says, Okay, a person just spent fifty hours with this painting and says, “Okay, I’ll give you a hundred bucks. I like that. Yeah, I’ll give you a hundred bucks.” Where that means the guy just got two dollars an hour, equivalent of that, and there’s just no viability in that. So in terms of how have you come about to be able to work out pricing and to be able to work out your rates for what you do? How does that come about? ‘Cause that’s an important thing.

Arthur Haywood (50:32): Yeah, definitely considering what you just said, all the commissions that I do end up also becoming a form of negotiations. There’s a form of negotiation involved. I don’t always get to paint exactly what my original intent was with a lot of the commissions because there are other people in the room who are reviewing on the panels. So they also have input in terms of how the design is going to look, who’s going to be represented, and that can influence the painting in different ways than what my original intent was. And so we’re talking about, just before you’re saying just paint what you want, and so on just saying that and someone adapting and someone negotiating with other parties.

And so with commissions, it’s a balance between the two. And normally because a lot of what I have in my portfolio are things that I’m actually excited to paint, the people who are commissioning me are looking for something similar.

They may have different input in terms of who’s exactly going to be represented, where certain people are gonna exactly go, but it normally doesn’t stray too far beyond the style and subject matter that I have on my portfolio and that I like to paint. So it generally stays in the area and the general interest of things that I like to paint anyway, but it can deviate in terms of like; so it’s a celebrity mural, they chose the celebrities who were depicted and things like that. So it can be a balance in terms of doing the commissions to be able to adapt and then negotiate with the people who are funding it.

But there’s also value to investing in yourself and being able to create your own portfolio. And I’ve definitely seen the benefits of that. I was doing the commission, the murals as assistant with the mural arts of the past. I was developing my own illustration portfolio. And a lot of that, I used that in my applications to apply for the scholarship in Paris. And they ended up selecting me based upon a lot of the personal work that I was doing that, I wasn’t even commissioned, that I was just doing on my own time, like during nights or in between projects. And so there are definitely values to investing in yourself too in the long term.

I’m doing a children’s book now and that’s just on my own time in between projects. And there’s definitely values in the long term to investing in yourself. So I wouldn’t negate that at all.

John Goodwin (52:51): I get it, great. Now, but in terms of how you’re going to get recompense for your work, how do you work that out when you bill somebody or when you negotiate up front and also when do you do a contract, and then how many revisions are they allowed to give before you have to charge more? Some of that stuff, some of the brass tacks.

Arthur Haywood (53:19): So all those factors are taken into account in terms of negotiating contracts, in terms of how many people are going to be depicted, because that’s normally what takes the most time is painting the portraits and how long it would take and how that would translate into what I’d be compensated for that time period. And in terms of revisions, how many revisions are asked for at a certain point. And there’s normally a design rate for a lot of the public art that I’ve done.

And even illustrations that I’ve done. And there’s a design revision rate included in the contract. And if not, I remember for the Tiger Woods Mural Learning Center mural that I was doing of the celebrities of Philadelphia was called Stars of Philadelphia. And they selected the entertainers to be depicted. And they approved the design. They selected to have the person who was at Abbott Elementary in the mural and right after they approved the design, they decided to change their minds about including the actress. And so I charged them a revision rate. Like if you want me to change it, you’re gonna have to pay for it. And so that’s how it came about. Sometimes the revisions come about because they want to change their minds and then they have to pay for it. And it’s not always especially negotiating in the contract.

But there’s a certain point where I have to just say, you’re not gonna say jump and I’m gonna say how high. So sometimes it comes about like that. You’re the artist, if you know your value, they’re not gonna get what they want if you don’t act accordingly. So if they want something, they have to do something to compensate for it. So just say to people, know your value as the artist, they’re asking you to do something because of what you have to offer and they not gonna get it without you.

John Goodwin (55:15): Now you made a very critical statement there about know your value. Someone who’s just starting out doesn’t know their value. They’re desperate to be able to get some validation, some recognition. So they can go on and say, I sold my art but like I said earlier, they got fifty bucks or a hundred bucks for something that they spent, dozens of hours on.

So, I guess at some point you need to transition from being an amateur to being semi-pro to being pro or to where your art does have value and you need to compensate. And some people think, my gosh, that’s too much money. But if you go and if you’re working at McDonald’s, at least in some places you’re paid up to twenty bucks an hour for flipping burgers.

Which is just crazy, but nevertheless that’s what you’ve got. So if you’re getting less than twenty dollars an hour for the art that you’re creating, that would seem to be you’d have more value being a burger flipper at McDonald’s than being an artist, which is not right. So can you just address that a bit?

Arthur Haywood (56:35): Yeah, there’s definitely balance to the whole career in terms of people’s individual situations. So everyone’s in a different situation. And I’m sure as you observed, a lot of the illustrators and artists, they’re also balancing their commissions with teaching as well, too, like teaching at colleges, universities, privately taking commissions or working other jobs as well, too. Fortunately there are opportunities where people can continue receiving commissions through doing murals and illustrations, to combine two different streams to form a river. But as you notice, with sometimes commission based careers, it can take multiple sources of income to provide a viable living. And there are also residencies and fellowships that are fully funded where they cover the cost of living, the cost of materials. I was fortunately a part of that when I was doing the Harry Hill Woolley Scholarship in Paris.

And also the Artist Fellowship in Tulsa for that was two and a half years I was there for, but the fellowship covered the cost of living and materials. And so there are different sources of support, but a lot of it can vary depending on people’s situations. So it’s for people to decide individually, what they would need for their own necessities. But I definitely factor that in to contracts in terms of what would be a reasonable amount.

What is a reasonable expectation of the number of commissions that I’m receiving. And if it’s not received at a certain point, it normally has to be balanced with something else, another form of income. I used to work at Walgreens and I used to go home at night. I used to actually run home at night to be able to go back to my easel in studio to paint. And it got to a certain point where my manager would see me running home and she said, Arthur, is there something wrong?

I see you running home every night. I said, No, no one’s chasing me. I’m just running back to my easel to get some painting done. So sometimes things have to be balanced. There are drawings I’ve done in my sketchbook, well, on the commute on the bus that have been sold in galleries. And it’s just during that time. The time can be used in different ways. For people individually to decide, how they want to balance a lot of things and what opportunities they have on the table. But I do think keeping in mind what you would like to get and what is appropriate for you to get can definitely be negotiated.

John Goodwin (59:06): I get it. So now in terms of what you’re talking about, you use oil to do the faces and stuff. So on painting on different things ’cause some people do really well with faces, some people do great with nature, some people do well with seascapes, some people do great with different things. So what’s been the most difficult thing for you to be able to learn, and not that you’re done learning.

Even talking with Larry Elmore, he’s he’s been painting for like sixty years and he’s still learning and still discovering new things. So but for yourself, what’s been the most difficult thing for you to be able to conquer as a subject matter?

Arthur Haywood (59:53): I definitely am very much interested in the portraits in terms of art being able to express emotions through facial expressions, through attire. And I think the artist visual language and realism has that capacity to communicate with people through language barriers. So that was definitely one of my main interests in terms of figurative art. And now that I’m more into developing my own children’s book, a lot of the feedback that I’ve been getting from different agents is also embrace the environments, the cities, the towns, and be able to show a broader sense of the places where these characters are living in. So I’m expanding more to even larger scenes, that show more of the landscape as well. As you’re doing a story, it’s not always limited to close up portraits. It can expand to, where they grew up and what the castle can look like and that becomes more important in terms of developing a broader story.

So that’s what I’m embracing more now as I’m expanding the children’s book that I’m working on, is the environment to provide a larger context for the characters and story. And I think, one of the definitely, one of hardest things in terms of learning was just mainly in terms of realism was how to depict on form, light on a portrait, light on any given curved surface. And I think a lot of the training I was able to receive in college at MICA, as well as the Grand Central Atelier that I was studying out in New York provided a lot more tools and foundation in terms of how to go about that. Tools that I still use in my art now, and it’s even while I’m painting the environments. But I think that’s what I’m expanding to now is to be more detailed about the spaces that these characters are existing in.

John Goodwin (01:01): I get it. So now you made a comment about light, because that’s one thing too that I’m just amazed with. I’ve talked to different artists and creators and how they’ll actually even make 3D modeling of something to be able to work out how the light looks on something. That’s really important to having models or having either a live person, or they make a clay mold of what it is that they’re going to be painting and then they can shine the light and they can see how does the light come down on it so it looks as realistic as possible? How do you do that?

Arthur Haywood (01:02): So for me, I normally create a sketch, either like a photo mock-up or starting something from imagination for something like a dragon or something like that. That’s something more imaginative. But for the areas that are more realistic is basically based on developing from an imaginary sketch to finding photo references that would align with the placement and subject matter that I have in my sketch from imagination.

And normally that’s done in Photoshop. So I can move things around more easily and then be able to draw from those references, put it the mind drawing onto the surface and then start the final painting. But for things that are more imagined, I can essentially imagine how the light is going to be getting darker as any given form is turning away from light. Even a dragon’s snout or a dragon’s ear that not necessarily gonna have a photo reference for, I can be able to imagine what that transition will look like. They say a lot of art, first you draw what you know. You draw like just a face as a circle. That’s what you know about a face. And then you draw what you know. Once you learn that light interacts with form by getting darker, like on a mountain, the further you go away from the light, you can how light works. And then you see what you know.

You can imagine it for yourself. And so once you have a certain framework for how light works, you can be able to create it, that illusion just from imagination. And that can work for more general forms like a dragon, but if you want to get very specific, it’s a lot easier to have photo references for something like a portrait. So definitely a combination of the two imagination photo references to create my art.

John Goodwin (01:04): I get it. So you like doing faces. But now when you do a big mural, I guess it’s just a matter then of when it gets like what’s the most that you’ve increased in image size by like two hundred percent, three hundred percent, five hundred percent?

Arthur Haywood (01:04): Right. So for like from the final, I think the closest to that transition like you mentioned was probably the one I did for Suburban Station, where I think I painted the portraits. I don’t think the portraits were much larger than two or three inches, and it got blown up about 300%. So that the portraits were much, much, much larger. But you can’t really tell the difference if it’s scanned at a high resolution. So it looks pretty much the same.

But for the other ones that I’ve done is pretty directly, just painting at the size that, well, I’m painting directly so it’s not scanned in and then applied to the surface later. But normally for a lot of the murals it’s about life size in terms of the figures.

John Goodwin (01:05): ‘Cause some of the different murals here, like in Hollywood on the on the sides of buildings, they’ll have a thing with jazz singers and they’ve got these jazz singers going all the way back. And they’re like two or three X size of the body on the sides of the building. And those look like they’re painted like with oil, because they’re definitely, they’re too exacting to just be a spray can. So they were actually painted on because it’s brick.

It’s on bricks, so it’s that you have your joints between each brick, so that’s all painted over as well. So it’s that’s it’s quite a project on that.

Arthur Haywood (01:05:54)

Yeah, I have done that in the past. Yeah, I have done that in the past as like an assistant on murals. The one we did for, I was assistant on with Amy Sherald, along with a few other artists that were assistants. That ended up being a hundred feet. So I think the portrait was probably at least 20 feet in terms of scale. And then I’ve assisted other artists on larger scaling. But for me personally, I like the life size scale. And normally I do a lot of paintings in interior spaces.

But it creates the illusion where you can feel like that person that’s depicted is in the same world as you. Like you can escape into the world of the story, almost like an IMAX theater. And that’s how it feels to read, to be transported to another world. So in order to create that metaphor, it’s a lot more effective for me to paint people at a life size scale and also more enjoyable for me. It just becomes almost more realistic because it’s almost like a Trompe-l’oeil, the illusion of that person, existing in this other world beyond the canvas. So personally, that’s what I’ve the aesthetic that I’ve been using for a lot of my own paintings, but I have done that larger upscaling as an assistant for other artists in the past.

John Goodwin (01:07): Okay, great. So now we’re almost done now, out of time here. So do you give like one or two bits of advice to an aspiring artist, what would that be to encouragement?

Arthur Haywood (01:07): Yeah. So I think in addition to some of the things that we were saying, I definitely encourage artists to embrace what is unique to them. Like saying before, there’s no need to fit in when you can stand out. There’s no need to just paint what exactly what you’re already seeing commissioned when there’s something about your own individual style, the things that are uniquely interesting to you that people who are commissioning art want to see. I’m telling you, right?

There are art directors and project managers out there right now so tired of seeing the same exact thing that are, hoping and praying for what only you can offer. And so I would definitely encourage artists to embrace what is unique to them as an additional comment in terms of advice. Cause I think I covered most of the general advice.

John Goodwin (01:08): Yeah, we just covered a lot. Well, thank you. For somebody to find you, where do they go?

Arthur Haywood (01:08): Yeah, thank you for having me. for finding more of my artworks. I have a website that’s ArthurHaywood.com, A-R-T-H-U-R-H-A-Y-W-O-O-D.com. And my Instagram handle is also my name, Arthur Haywood. And, feel free to check in for updates. I have a newsletter for updates on news as well, too.

John Goodwin (01:08): Right. Well thank you very much Arthur. It’s been great, really great speaking with you.

Arthur Haywood (01:08): Thank you, John. Great. It was great speaking with you too.

John Goodwin (01:08): Yeah, and thank you for listening. Subscribe to the Writers of the Future Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We’ve also been syndicated on the United Public Radio Network where you can find these podcasts as well. Writers and Illustrators of the Future are contests created by L. Ron Hubbard to provide a means for the aspiring writer and artist to be seen and acknowledged for over four decades. It’s free to enter and open to amateur short story writers and artists of science fiction or fantasy. Again, thank you very much, Arthur.

Arthur Haywood (01:09): Thank you so much, John.