Podcast

Transcript

John Goodwin (00:07): Hello and welcome to the Writers and Illustrators of the Future podcast. This is John Goodwin, your host. This podcast is dedicated to the inspiring writer and artist and will provide inspiration and tips from top professionals in the field. If you’ve been listening to this podcast or are new to it, I thank you very much. I would also appreciate if you took a moment to follow it on whatever platform you use to listen to your podcasts.

Writers of the Future is one of the longest-running writing competitions in the world now celebrating over four decades of providing a helping hand as initially conceived by L. Ron Hubbard. I’m in St. Louis, Missouri at the Western Writers of America Annual Conference, and I’m speaking with Kellen Cutsforth, author and Executive Director of WWA. I was introduced to Kellen by Melody Groves, current Executive Director. Actually, she just about an hour ago turned over her gavel to her incumbent.

And, but anyway, she still is the one that introduced me to Kellen, and she’s been a past guest on this podcast, and I’ve known since 2009 when I attended my first Western Writers of America conference, and she was at that point over PR. Kellen sent me a copy of Old West Showdown.

It is a book about famous characters of the Old West who I had known but didn’t know what was fact and what was myth. Once I read the first chapter about the gunfight at the OK Corral, followed by the chapter on the Northfield Bank robbery attempt by James Younger Gang, I was totally hooked and I’m very anxious to get onto it. So welcome Kellen.

Kellen Cutsforth (01:34): Thank you, I appreciate it.

John Goodwin (01:36): So first off, just give me a bit about your journey as a writer. How’d you get started?

Kellen Cutsforth (01:41): Great question. For my for my first book that I published, which was a transcribed journal of a young Englishman who came to America in early 1880s, and he fell into many adventures and eventually became a business partner with Buffalo Bill Cody. I found that journal in my day job, working as an archivist in the Western history and genealogy department at the Denver Public Library.

And found the journal, I started reading it and I said, Wow, this is amazing. And then I started fact checking it. And when I started finding many of the things that were covered in the journal to be true, I realized, well, this could be an incredible book. And so I spent almost two years transcribing and annotating the book. And then I eventually, and this is a plug for Western writers of America.

I sold the book at my first Western Writers of America conference. I pitched it and it sold. And I was on my way ever since then. But I’ve always been a fan and of the old west. I grew up in southwestern Colorado near Bent’s Fort and Bent’s original fort and Comanche National Grassland. And so the history of that area, that land has always been steeped in my memory and part of who I am. So I’ve always been a fan of the West.

John Goodwin (03:16): I get it. So now as a writer, so you just said now you’re also an archivist. So that’s your, pays for your food, and your writing is what pays for your spiritual enhancement.

Kellen Cutsforth (03:28): Right. Well and then I’m also I’m also employed by the Western Writers of America as the executive director. I was in archives and I have still with Denver Public Library, but moved into being the photo sales administrator there. So I get access to all their one of a kind photos and I do the sales for them on that. So but yes, still in that neighborhood, still working with the collections.

John Goodwin (03:52): I get it. I get it. So one thing from reading I didn’t finish the first book, but then in reading the second book, the one on the various Old West Showdown. So are you a Western writer or an American historian?

Kellen Cutsforth (04:11) Good. Well, I believe that America became its most American when people moved West. That’s when we became we developed our own real culture. We got away from more of a European influence. So I would call myself a Western writer, but that is also American. So but yeah, that’s a very good question. But yes, I see myself as a Western writer.

John Goodwin (04:36): Yeah. It’s, I mean I was raised in Tucson, Arizona, and I lived outdoors and I just, I wasn’t much of a reader of it. I mean I, when I went to college I inherited a library of the full library of Louis L’Amour. So I ended up reading all of those and I be at that point I really embraced the Western I mean, ’cause he but he started in England and just came across and then that was the whole growth of the Sackett family and on up like that. And then I read several I’m a publisher. I publish all of L. Ron Hubbard’s fiction books. And so his Western books are very comparable to Louis L’Amour. And that whole same type of mystique, and he does a lot of stuff that’s an alternate history type. He’ll take something, some piece of fact like in the Buckskin Brigades, he starts off with an entry in the Lewis and Clark Expedition journal.

And from there he just, he goes off and weaves a tale. And he does that a lot with, he has one with the Gadston Purchase and one with the cyanide mining, what the impact it had on that and just different parts of history than just what it meant, you know, the railroad coming across. Are you familiar at all with any of Hubbard’s westerns or pulp fiction?

Kellen Cutsforth (06:00): So I only am aware of that he was an author of Westerns before he went into the science fiction realm. But, I had not read any of his early fiction. I’m come from a generation and my, as far as fiction influence went, it was Cormac McCarthy is who I highly into. But I was aware that that Hubbard wrote Western fiction like Louis. He was a paperback Western writer, if you will. And then he springboard from that into his more well known works, what I was I’m aware of.

John Goodwin (06:39): Have you read any of his works?

Kellen Cutsforth (06:41): I actually read Dianetics. So his most popular work.

John Goodwin (06:44): Yeah. That’s probably his most popular work.

Kellen Cutsforth (06:55): When I was a kid, here’s an offshoot story, back in the day when they would do promotion on television for books and things like that. I would see the volcano erupting and they did a graphic of showing it erupt and everything like that. And I thought, wow, this is supposed to be the greatest adventure book ever written, you know, and I was so enthralled by it. And it was and that of course that was that area, you know, you’d order on from television or something like that. And so that was my first introduction to him. And then of course when I got deeper just into to Westerns and knowing Western authors and you know, coincidentally, one of our folks are here, Lauren Estelman. I knew Lauren Estelman as a crime writer before I knew he was a Western writer, you know, and it was kinda was like Hubbard too. I thought he was more sci fi related and then I found out, he’s a Western, he wrote with Westerns for years. And many of them, that I mean that’s where he cut his teeth really.

John Goodwin (07:49): Yeah, and this book here is Master Storyteller. It covers all of his mystery, adventure, science fiction, fantasy, some romance, thriller, military fiction. He was just upwards of two hundred stories he wrote during the pulp era, and so that’s why he was considered one of the masters of, during the pulp fiction era, and he was one of the highest paid authors and, but he crossed all the different genres. And a lot of his, what he did too was to you constantly analyze to see, okay, so which genre pays the most? You know. What gets the best, you know, return? ‘Cause he was writing two days a week, three hours a day. And he was doing about a hundred thousand words a month. And he used that money to, for his researches and travels.

So, I’m also curious, did you know Dakota Livesay?

Kellen Cutsforth (08:41): Oh the…

John Goodwin (08:42): Chronicle of the Old West. He was a good friend and based in fact your historian, his whole thing is the old west and chronicling. And he had his newspaper and a radio show, which I was a guest on many times. This belt buckle I’ve got here was a gift from him. And then his wife gave me his brief, his leather briefcase hand tooled. I was gonna bring it here. But then it was supposed to be raining like crazy for two days, so I didn’t bring it. And then the storm passes.

Kellen Cutsforth (09:13): Didn’t do anything, right?

John Goodwin (09:15): But I was always looking at taking it’s so cool.

Kellen Cutsforth (09:17): Or you to, you’ll have to bring it to the next convention in Carson City.

John Goodwin (09:20): I definitely will. So as stated in the intro, I really enjoyed the Old West Showdown. It starts off with the facts. Then between you and your co-author Bill Markley, each of you take a side pro and con and attempt to fill the holes with opposing perspectives. And in some instances, it made me think twice about my own viewpoint, and I was amazed at how the myths continued to grow over time with each retelling of those stories.

So I guess one beginning like, so that, I mean I obviously, I just gave a description of the story, but like you picked what was it nine? Ten chapters, ten different key stories or personas controversies in the Midwest. So, let’s talk about that a bit. Like what was the inspiration for this story and how did you, you started off, you know, why you with the Gunfight at OK Corral, I think was the first. You know, so let’s just start with there.

Kellen Cutsforth (10:15): Okay. This is a good start. And Bill and I we have a series of books. So Old West Showdown was our first and then Standoff at High Noon was our next one, and then we have another one in the works. Though those books are all set the same. So Bill takes one side, I take the other, and then we hash it out. And many of them are stories and things that you’ve heard before, of course. You know, were the Earps the good guys or were they actually the…

John Goodwin (10:41): They were the good guys!

That was your stand, yeah.

Kellen Cutsforth (10:45): But how it started, and this is really interesting, was I wasn’t even involved in the initial hatching of the idea of a friend of Bill Markley. They were just arguing over Cattle Kate. And when she was, so she’s one of the only women hung, executed on the, in the West. And the argument was, well, was she was she a thief, a cattle rustler, and that’s why they hung her, or was it the cattle barons wanted her land. And so she, Bill and his friend were arguing back and forth. And then they said, Well, this is a great idea. We should do this. And then his friend, she said, Well, I have way too many books lined up. I can’t do it. But how about you get Kellen to do it? And so Bill and I talked and then we started hatching the idea. And when it came to the Earps and Clantons, we said we gotta come out of the pun intended here. We gotta go out, we gotta start with a bang.

So we started with the Earps and the Clantons. And then we say, Well, we got it. We have to touch on all those ones everybody knows. So did Billy the Kid really die? Was he killed by Pat Garrett or did he live to be an old man, Brushy Bill Roberts, you know, which is a story. And then you know, like say Northfield raid, all of that. For large portions of it, we knew which side we wanted. And then we said, Okay, we need a couple more check because ten is nice, you know, ten is a nice round number. And so we said, Okay. There were ones that we want like Buffalo Bill. Why, did he ride for the Pony Express or not? I was yes. He rode for the Pony Express immediately. And so we there were.

John Goodwin (12:25): Here’s the pace stub, here’s the pay stub, it proves it.

Kellen Cutsforth (12:27): Yep, exactly. Well and as a side note too in that, Buffalo Bill, the Pony Express was a footnote, a historic footnote until Buffalo Bill.

John Goodwin (12:38): I didn’t know that when I read it. For me it’s like Pony Express.

Kellen Cutsforth (12:41): Everybody knows about it, right? I mean, how many it was like on the anniversary, seven, eight years ago or whatever it was, Google the Google Doodle was Pony Express, you know. I mean, how many billions of people would see it? But that did not become popular until Buffalo Bill reenacted it over and over and over and over and over again in the in the Wild West show. Yes, exactly. So but anyway, that the controversies we knew what we wanted right away.

And then like I say, there were a couple where we were fence leaning and it was like a coin toss. It’s like, okay, heads I get Billy lived, tails you get he, Pat Garrett killed him, you know? And so we went back and forth that way. But there were ones that we were hardened about. We were just totally like I was like, I’m with Earps, period. So yes, Wyatt Earp, yes, sir. He, so and that’s really how it blossomed and then the book did so well we got a, we got a second contract immediately and they said we want another one. So then that’s how the second book came about too. So, and then the same thing. There were new ones we knew we wanted and then and then there were and then towards the end of probably the second book we were like okay again here comes a coin flip. Which one do you want to do? You know, Geronimo the good guy, Geronimo the bad guy kind of thing.

John Goodwin (14:05): Yeah, so on I’m just curious now, ’cause I have more I want to ask you about on that book there, but so what for you was the most shocking and revelatory find you made in researching and writing the book? Or it could be multiple answers to…

Kellen Cutsforth (14:19): Probably Earps and Clantons because I hadn’t dug deep into the inquest that was done after the deaths and the O.K. Corral after the gunfight and the there are some controversies in there that that make Earps at times look like instigators of that. And so that was a little,

John Goodwin (14:52): Bill definitely paints that picture.

Kellen Cutsforth (15:14): That’s exactly what he does do, that they were instigators. But if you read the whole inquest and go through it, Ike Clanton is an idiot. He just can’t remember anything or he lies, he makes stuff up and then maybe there’s like a kernel of truth and then he just bloviates (bloviate: talking a lot in a pompous, boastful way while saying very little of real substance) it into this, you know, and they’re trying to ask him questions that may actually help his side. And he still just can’t keep it straight. So to me, I, but it, that was an eye opener because like I said, I hadn’t and of course the inquest had been published and it’s been reviewed a lot and everything, but reading the whole thing and realizing, wow, there are some, there are some issues here.

Especially when it came to Doc Holiday’s involvement because his temper was so high, he would get into it with Ike and that and they were the ones really stirring the hornets nest that eventually became the gunfight at the OK Corral. So, but yeah, that was a big one for me, I think, definitely.

John Goodwin (15:59): I was remember when I went to Tombstone and saw the corral. Because Hollywood you’ve got this huge, big it builds up and up when you, it’s so small.

Kellen Cutsforth (16:10): Yeah. And then they actually didn’t fight in the corral. They were on the other side of the street where the, where the fight happened. The horse that one of the Clantons, that was hiding behind it was pulled from the corral and he was trying to keep it in front of him. But yeah, it is amazing. Once you go there, that’s one of the beautiful things about history too, is if you go to a battlefield or you go to the actual tombstone or you know, you see the Superstition Mountains for first time or whatever.

Actually being there and getting the realistic view of it because you like you say, Hollywood they paint the pictures so it looks pretty on the screen, you know, so it’s appealing when you watch it. And if they need more room to move, then they widen the corral, you know. So, but when you see it and then and how, you know wide across the main street is and the walk and all that, it’s you know, Tombstone’s not a huge town at all, you know what I mean? Of course in the movie tombstone, gosh, it looks like they’re walking a mile in those dusters down that street. You know what I mean? So yeah, the actual, the visual history of it is really you should experience it. Yeah. If you’re gonna read those things. Yep.

John Goodwin (17:26): So any other shocking or revelatory finds from your research?

Kellen Cutsforth (17:30): You know, that I mentioned it. There were moments where I thought, you know, there and I, I’ll, Brushie Bill Roberts has a very convincing story about being Billy the kid and you know, looking for the pardon and everything like that. And he has a convincing story. They, he was asked questions and he knew answers to them. And the man from what I understand and not to defame him or anything, but he didn’t have much of an education. And so for him to read any of these things or to, you know, just find it out and then make it up and put it in his head, really didn’t track. He knew instances and people that Billy the kid would have known. So that was a really, that was a fun one too. And it was a really fun back and forth.

Bill and I actually do talks together when we can be because he’s from South Dakota and I’m from Colorado. But when we can get together, you know, we’ve done Deadwood together, a couple other places, even on podcasts too. And we just shoot it out back and forth on the podcasts. And that’s what’s a lot of fun. That one was probably most fun I’ve had writing a book. Because sometimes it becomes laborious. You you’re writing and you’re like, I gotta get all the facts down and everything.

But Bill and I are shooting emails back and forth almost like you’re shooting six shooters at each other back and forth. You well, why you say that? Where’d you get that? And building that whole story, those writing all those chapters. It was really fun. Yeah.

John Goodwin (19:09): Now is it considered because you’re dealing with the mythos of the old west, is that considered nonfiction or fiction? It’s nonfiction. So now cause I saw it because you’ve got a lot of citations in your books. Yes. So when you have some of these instances which are in the realm of mythos. You know, well, he said, she said, you know, how does that work in terms of…

‘Cause people are listening to this podcast are also writers and this is a, this is an area of writing these things, these very interesting facts of the past. And one thing I will say on fiction has to be believable, nonfiction doesn’t. Nonfiction just needs to be factual. And quite often it isn’t believable. But yet that, but that’s what went down. How many of those types of things did you find were like if you’re writing it as a fiction you wouldn’t be able to sell it because it’s so unbelievable. But yet this is what it was. So any instances like that?

Kellen Cutsforth (20:13): Right, right, right. Well, you probably go back to the Billy the Kid one, right? It’s so unbelievable. Did he, this guy really die, even though, you know, everybody says Pat Garrett gunned him down. When it comes to nonfiction too, right, and for those who read good nonfiction, a narrative is built in there, right? And you’re right. They have this like he said, she said, Well, where did you get that? you know?

And to build the narrative, you know, a lot of it, like I say, if you read the inquest, then you build almost the conversational between because it’s it, you know, he you have someone on the stand being asked questions, and you try and build the conversation that way. So it almost reads like fiction, you know what I mean? So it has a flow instead of, you know, here’s the fact, here’s the fact, here’s the fact, and then it becomes a snooze fest, you know. So yeah, I you know, gosh, without a lot of the revelations.

You know, a lot of those stories, and the and the myths and those sort of things, we’ve heard before they’ve been put in it, you know, been written about before and things like that. And so what do you know, what to expect, gosh, it’s hard, you know. but probably Earps, I’d say Earps. I go back to that one ’cause like I say, that would, that you read the inquest and of course when you grew up watching the Hollywood movies.

Same here too. My favorite is Tombstone. I mean, I love Tombstone. And the Earps are the good guys, you know, and they’re always the good guys. And then when that gets challenged, you know, and then you start to see some of this other side. And of course, if you’re in Arizona, there’s like camps, you know, there’s like the Earps and the Clantons almost like, you know, Hatfield’s and McCoys almost, you know, the people that go into the camps.

And when you start to see the other side, that’s the eye opening stuff because you start to drift away from the fiction end, right? That’s been glossed up and made to look nice. And then you have a nice black and white division between, you know, good and bad. And then when you see, well, these lines they blur a little bit, you know. We have a little crossover. Clanton’s, you know, they they have a beef.

Did Wyatt Earp actually, you know, know about the stagecoach that was robbed and then they, did they have a deal so he could become the sheriff of the county and all you know, I mean, is that really…

John Goodwin (22:51): But the Clantons also they were, the term being used, that the derogatory term then was “cowboy” before it evolved. And they’re the ones that they were the cattle thief and…

Kellen Cutsforth (23:02): They were rustlers. Yeah. And they were pulling any, people’s cattle or going over across Mexico border and bringing across and they were stealing and they were, and they used what you call running brands. So you could just change a brand on a steer or whatever your but…

John Goodwin (23:20): If that automatically labels him as like the bad guy. You know, so whatever extenuating circumstances, they’re still stealing your cattle, running brands.

Kellen Cutsforth (23:31): They were. And old man Clanton, when he got shot I mean, he was the leader of it, you know. It wasn’t like, well, there’s just one bad apple. Like dad was having them do, you know, all of this stuff. They were in essence a crime family almost, you know. They were all in on it. So but then you blur the lines of, Well, were the Earps kind of in on it? Did they have a deal together? You know, were they kind of dirty in some ways, you know?

And no one’s ever perfect, you know. That’s what you find. That’s honestly a revelation too, is like, you know, you close your eyes and you’re Hollywood heroes and then you, and then you see, well, people are people. People sometimes make bad mistakes. So yeah.

John Goodwin (24:11): The the thing with Northfield, a perspective I didn’t have when I read, I’m wasn’t sure if it was you or Bill, but the Younger Gang and the guys that came in, they were Confederate soldiers and they were out of a job when the Confederacy lost and they still had a beef. Yep. And so they were still trying to fight for their cause, even though that cause had been like, Okay, we signed a deal, we’re done. And then the, was it the Younger brother, he was, were his younger brother and mother were, mom was lost her arm, and brother was killed when Jesse James. When one of the Pinkerton detectives put a bomb in the house, bombed his house and then he went back up to Northfield, where he lived and so he was part of it. Was also his revenge

Kellen Cutsforth (25:10): Right. Right. Yeah. It was…

John Goodwin (25:12): That was that, that definitely changed it doesn’t justify it but it changed to give more at least understanding of what was going on then.

Kellen Cutsforth (25:20): Yeah. You humanized them and especially I think too sometimes looking back the past we kinda tend to Confederates were the bad guys, right? You know, and in some in some instances totally understandable. But in other instances, you know, these people were being invaded and they were I mean, most of the action, most of the war happened in the southern states. The North had the stronger military and they had more people and they were able to invade the southern states. And so a lot of those people were fighting back. And you know, if you, if you’re in terms of the Pinkertons, if you’re gonna, if you’re law enforcement, maybe you shouldn’t be bombing the house.

I know you’re trying to capture a wanted criminal, but when you’ve realize he’s not there and it’s only his mother and relatives there. Yeah. And of course anybody would have that beef and anybody would look for revenge. And of course, you know, choosing Northfield, it was a northern, it was a northern bank. They tried to hit those when it was revenge time, you know. And but, in the same breath, Jesse James kind of has this folk hero status, almost like the American Robin Hood, where, you know, I was robbing from the rich and I was, you know, given to the poor.

John Goodwin (26:42): Which is a great story. The second part never came to fruition.

Kellen Cutsforth (26:45): Exactly, exactly. And Bill states that very well, I think, is that he never, there’s no proof that he gave to anybody. He robbed and he kept. Yeah, you know, and they robbed payrolls, you know, people payments coming through on the train, they robbed those.

John Goodwin (27:03): In the Confederacy he robbed.

Kellen Cutsforth (27:14): Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so again, you know, it’s like looking at the Earps or whatever. No nobody’s perfect. People are different. Some people do crazy heinous things like Jesse James. I mean, he was a criminal for sure. Yeah. and then of course, then in with the Younger Brothers and their gang and his and then of course Jesse’s brother Frank. But yeah. That was a fun one too. That was fun too. We did all the big names really. Yeah, we came out hard and out of the gates with that first one, yeah.

John Goodwin (27:37): And then Wild Bill Hickok. Now that’s again, he’s another famous name that anybody who’s done any watched any decent television or movies knows Wild Bill Hickok. Only to find out that what Hollywood teaches is Wild Bill Hickok isn’t necessarily the exact persona that was. Right, exactly. So anything on researching him that was for you, like you learn like, wow, I had no idea.

Kellen Cutsforth (28:06): Yeah, you know, ’cause one of the things that you get and you of course when you reference Hollywood like that, if you watched any movies and I mean even recently too, he’s in he’s in the TV show Deadwood and there’s a character that’s Wild Bill. And they make him such a like gunfight every other day, you know what I mean? Like he like he’s constantly fighting off all these villains.

And in reality, and I’ll probably misquote here, I believe it was only five people he ever killed. Now, you say only, I mean five people’s five people, but only five in gunfights that he ever had. And, but he is so infamous. He’s so famous because he is the high noon standoff shootout that is the original Davis Tutt Jr. and he killed him in the street, as you’ve seen reenacted a bazillion times in all Hollywood movies from back in the silent era till present. So, but yeah, I think for me biggest revelation was the early gunfight, if you will, that he had when he was at Rock Creek Station and he kind of was hiding out and pegged somebody, you know what I mean? But that was the biggest one to me.

But I think too researching, you know, I’m of course a big Buffalo Bill researcher. And of course he and Bill Hickok.

John Goodwin (29:42): We’ll get to him in a moment.

Kellen Cutsforth (30:03): Okay. And he and Bill Hickok were friends. But then they I think a revelation for me was I knew like Bill was in the pulps, but so was Hickok. Hickok was in a bunch of stories too, and I kept finding more and more of them and I was like, wow, he was they kind of really turned him into a pulp icon too, which was really interesting in in his lifetime. So that was really interesting. Yeah.

John Goodwin (30:06): Very interesting. So now the, is the way that we’ve been told how Hickok was killed, is that still does that ring true? Yeah. Dead men’s hand.

Kellen Cutsforth (30:14): Yeah. I Yeah, the dead man’s hand, right? Yeah. I mean Markley will tell you it’s all baloney and they made it up and I it’s probably fact to that. But what’s interesting is no one knows where that started. Where did that, how did that get attached to Hickok, you know? And but everybody knows it. All the gamblers know it, whether they know anything about Bill Hickok or not, they know what the dead man’s hand is and all of that.

So probably not, but it’s fun anyway. So yeah.

John Goodwin (30:48): But he was sitting with his back to the wall.

Kellen Cutsforth (30:50): Well, he normally sat with his back to the wall but that time he did not and then he was killed. Yeah. Jack McCall shot him in the back of the head. And like say, was that an assassination? or did he just tick off the wrong guy and he just was in the bad place, the wrong place at the wrong time kind of thing with his with normally sitting with his back to the wall. So yeah.

John Goodwin (31:20): Yeah. And then so now Buffalo Bill Cody is one thing that I did not know was that he was the first American celebrity is the case that’s made on that. So let’s talk about that ’cause that’s, that was fascinating. That’s probably, he more than anyone is responsible for popularizing the United States and through the West.

Kellen Cutsforth (31:42): Yep. Yep. At one point he was probably the most famous American alive at one point. And more so than the American presidents at the time because of his Wild West. And I think I tell people too, I you know, I say, you know, Buffalo Bill’s Wild West, and that’s the other thing too. It was never “show.” He did not see it as a show. He called it Buffalo Bill’s Wild West because he saw it as a historic reenactment.

Now a lot of what was going on is baloney in his in his show, but that’s the way he saw it. But he brought the West to the world and the Wild West that we think of Gunsmoke, Deadwood, all of this stuff. Yeah, all of them, all of it started with Buffalo Bill. He created that mythic West, you know, conquering the land, all these sort of things that we think of, you know, the outlaws and the attack on a stagecoach and all of that. Buffalo Bill created all of those things. Like we talked about the Pony Express, right? he reenacted over and over and over again and it became part of our consciousness. Yeah, that was it. And then the telegraph lines went up and away they went. But because Bill did it over and over and over again.

John Goodwin (32:55): It was only round like what, fourteen months?

Kellen Cutsforth (33:10): We remember it. We remember it and still to this day. It’s been gone. There hasn’t been a Wild West show in years and years and years, like Buffalo Bills and we still remember the Pony Express because he ingrained it so much in our in in our consciousness.

John Goodwin (33:24): No, but that was that’s one of the most fascinating things to me, just how one person can be so responsible. For so much. But also the team that he assembled for his Wild West show. I mean, some of the people in there, you know, the famous Native American chiefs who were like quote unquote the bad guys, they were like, you know, taking the bows along with him at the end of the show.

Kellen Cutsforth (33:51): Exactly. Sitting Bull had one of the richest contracts for an entertainer at the time. And Sitting Bull, of course, if you know, in his history was pretty anti-white and anti you know, he… And but he said, I respect Buffalo Bill. Buffalo Bill told me what he was gonna do and we signed a contract and he followed through on it. Imagine that, right?

And Sitting Bull was one of his most popular of people, of course Annie Oakley. Annie Oakley and then many of the people that worked for him, they weren’t actors. They were actual gauchos, they were actual cowboys, cossacks. They had worked the range or they had done the thing that they were reenacting, and then they parlayed it into becoming a performer, an actor. But they had, but many, many of them had been scouts. Many of them had been actual cowboys on the range, trail finders. All of that kind of stuff. Yeah, all John Nelson, who ran the Deadwood Stagecoach that came out every single time before every single show, ran a stagecoach. He was a Pathfinder and he was a scout and he was a mountain man before any of that.

And he, and then he became one of the most popular guys because he drove the Deadwood stagecoach. You know, it’s every single, every single show. So, and again, and Cody himself, right? And I laid it out, you know, he was a scout, he was a buffalo hunter, he’s one of only six civilians to ever win the Medal of Honor. You know, he did all these things before he was ever a showman.

So these people and you don’t see that now, right? I mean actors go into acting, you know, they don’t do something many of them anyway, don’t do something before like that. And but then, you know, you had different occupation and then this performing thing came along and it was a pretty good gig. So yeah.

John Goodwin (36:07): So he created his show, was that ’cause you named it because that was what he considered was right the West, but it was also business opportunity. Yes. So was it his, he just saw as a good business deal or was he really trying to…

Kellen Cutsforth (36:26): He had been a stage actor for a little bit there, and that’s when the idea was hatched. So his promotion manager, Nate Salisbury, was the one who kind of floated the idea at first because he was drawing such big crowds on these stages and from all reports, he was a pretty bad actor. He wasn’t that great, but people wanted to see him.

He was like this authentic article. And he had, but he did have a background. That’s what, that’s the one thing I think a lot of people forget when they, because Bill gets poo-pooed a little bit, just being a showman. But he was so much more before that. And so everybody wanted to see this genuine article. And there’s the you know, there’s stories of him can’t remember his lines, didn’t know where to walk off on stage, and he couldn’t remember his lines so he just started talking about adventures in the West that he had. And then sitting down on the stage and taking questions and it just, and the show turned into a like a question and answer thing about him.

But he was such an article that people wanted to see. So yeah and you know and then of course he learned embellishment going on and you know someone would attribute something to him, right? He’s like, you’re the one that killed Talbot. Okay, sure. Yeah, I did, yeah, I did that, you know? And he played into it. He played into all of those things to create this great…

John Goodwin (37:53): Mistique that he created.

Now one thing that was probably popular data, but I didn’t know it I didn’t at least I didn’t remember that I knew it was when he went to, he took his show to England, Europe, England and Europe, the Queen actually stood and…

Kellen Cutsforth (38:12): That’s right. Saluted him. Yep. And he, and he took the American flag out and planted it in the showground. And she’s and the story is she stood up and she saluted the American flag. And it was the first time, you’re right. And I make the point, I say, Buffalo Bill was so popular, he was more popular than the most popular American.

And he was more, not only more well known than the American president, many people thought he was the American president, you know, because he was so, so well known and he represented this America as its own… As I say, you know, when they, when Americans moved west, we got away from sort of those European roots and started developing our own culture, our own style of dress, our own way of acting, the things we hate, everything, everything, right? All that kind of moved away when people started moving west.

And we developed this really unique American culture. And Europeans really liked it. You know, it was like, it’s this really different thing, you know, Native Americans, you know, their ritual dances and things like that, the Buffalo Bill encouraged them to do, even though they were restricted on the reservation from doing them. But he said, bring it to the world. Let’s show everybody who we are as Americans and what our culture is and people went to it, you know, it felt it was incredible to them. Such a different, unique thing.

John Goodwin (39:48): That’s great. So again, the name of this book is…

Kellen Cutsforth (39:52): Old West Showdown.

John Goodwin (39:48): And you can get that?

Kellen Cutsforth (39:52): You can get that anywhere books are sold.

John Goodwin (39:59): Good answer.

That’s a great answer that other authors like to be able to give. So again, this is the Writers of the Future podcast and its purpose is to provide that inspiration and tips from top professionals.

Now, one thing that was just newly announced this morning was a new category for the Spur Award. And I was so excited to hear that because that’s totally this audience. That new category. So let’s talk about that a little bit.

For all you science fiction and fantasy and speculative fiction folks, listen up.

Kellen Cutsforth (40:34): So the new category for our Spurs is Alternative Western. And that normally for you folks you would call it the Weird Western, but we’re calling it Alternative Western. But this is your crossover, your science fiction, your horror westerns, your you know, time travel westerns, all that kind of stuff. The crossover, we are starting a new Spur category for that.

And it will be, we will award it in our at our next convention. We will have an Alternative Western category and we encourage everybody who has published in the recent year in our in our awards period to apply and get your work shown. We want to open up Western writers and our Spur awards to all sorts of folks really diversify it because this is where some of the best stories are being told, you know. What is more adaptable than the Western, right? We all, everybody knows Star Wars is the Western in space, you know. Star Trek is the wagon train to the stars, you know, and…

John Goodwin (41:53): Battlefield Earth is the same thing. Exactly. You know, Johnny Goodboy Totter the hero, he’s in buckskins and he’s riding a horst.

Kellen Cutsforth (41:59): Right, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. John Carter of Mars, all those things. A Western. And so what better category to have? And for you know, young fiction writers who may not know they’re writing a western at this point, realize well, yes, that this category fits me. So yeah, exactly. and so we want to diversify and give everybody an opportunity to see what Western Wriers has to offer and go for that that Spur.

John Goodwin (42:35): So the Western Writers of America or that’s what it is, right? Western Yeah, Western Writers of America. So, but it’s international.

Kellen Cutsforth (42:47): Yes, we have international members. Yeah.

John Goodwin (42:49): Okay, good. So you don’t have to be ’cause this this podcast goes out to about a hundred and sixty countries, so you can be wherever you are.

Membership isn’t expensive, but it gives you a team, it gives you a group of people. And if it’s other people similar to yourself, you’ve I’ve spoke I spent some time just before this podcast interview with the webmaster on an update being done to the website to be able to accommodate this. And there’s going to be features in there that are behind the paywall, so you have to be a member.

Where you’ll able to get access to editors and agents and fellow writers that you can team up with and have as your team, as your group, as your group of people that you can work with and they can help coach you along in that type of thing. It’s, I love this association. I mean, I’ve been member of Western writers, Mystery writers, Science Fiction writers, and

this one’s my favorite one because the people are just so real.

I love the West anyway. I grew up in the West. But the fact that’s now, and realize too that before there was space opera, there was horse opera. And that’s what space opera was coined after. So first was the horse opera, which was the performances of Westerns, and then became space opera because it’s that same storyline but moved into space.

Kellen Cutsforth (44:15): And just so folks out there, you do not have to be a member to win a Spur. Anyone can apply their, they can, anyone can send in their work. Do not have to be a member. Yeah, it is open to one and all. So we we’re all we’re accepting to everyone and we, and our judges will review all the works that are sent in the specific category.

John Goodwin (44:27): I didn’t know that. Wow!

Well, so where do they go to find out about this? How to enter?

Kellen Cutsforth (44:46): So it’ll be on Westernwriters dot org. Our categories and our application will open in August. So it’s following our convention, which is going on right now. And then our Spur Awards chairman will get the information out and we will put it online and you can find it at westernwriters.org. And cruise around the website too while you’re there and see some of the other things we offer and our symposiums and all that stuff.

It’s quite the group and yeah everyone you meet in this group is genuine and they really want to help writers. That is what this group is about. We want to help writers further their careers, go to the place that they want to go, wherever they see themselves going. If they’ll just, they want one book out there or they want to have their whole series independently published or go somewhere else. That is what we’re here to do. We are here to help those folks, and those folks who write westerns and they can be weird westerns. It’s okay. So Yeah. Absolutely.

John Goodwin (45:57): So now why are you so dedicated to Western Writers of America?

Kellen Cutsforth (46:02): That’s a great question. I am dedicated. One I always say “Omerta” (Italian) “loyalty above all else.” But Western Writers helped me. Anywhere I’ve been in my writing career, it was because of Western Writers. I would not be anywhere else. I sold my first book at a Western Writers convention in Sacramento and I sold it at the breakfast round table.

John Goodwin (46:28): There’s part of, there’s several publishers that actually participate. So there’s a half at least half a dozen or more publishers that are here.

Kellen Cutsforth (46:36): It depends. Some years, you know, you have ten or more, some, this year we had about seven to eight. and it’s everything from magazine publishing to nonfiction to fiction publishers. And we like I say, we are always trying to help writers and it is because I came to Western Writers.

Anything I have, the Old West Showdown book that we’re talking about, was because I met Bill Markley. And Bill Markley is a member of Western Writers of America. And I met him at a convention and my first book that I talked about, that journal, I sold that at a Western Writers convention. So I am dedicated to and loyal to this organization because they showed dedication and loyalty to me. And it’s time for me to give back. And so that is why I took the position of executive director and trying to lead this organization into the future.

John Goodwin (47:33): Good. So why should, we got Western writer, but we’re now expanding it because of this late breaking news. Weird Western as well. So we’ll just expand the term Western. But why should somebody join? You can send your book in, but what’s in it for me if I join.

Kellen Cutsforth (47:56): Yep. So just like the convention, like you talked about, you’re gonna get access to publishers where before you might be sending emails or hoping for them to get back to you. You can actually do a pitch session right in front of someone here at the convention. But you will also have access to industry information that you may not find anywhere else. We distribute our Roundup magazine that gives that.

That is our membership magazine and it gives information going on not only in the industry but what’s going on with westerns. It gives you an opportunity to also publish in the magazine. Only our members can publish there. And then we’re also working on giving some legal information packages to our new, our members so folks can understand their copyright, what goes on, how do they protect their rights.

How do they protect themselves in a world where everybody seems to be trying to take advantage of you? So we have a lot of options there. As John talked about trying to update on our website. once you get past that, that once you’re a member, you’d have access to a lot of information about, you know, who are good agents, who are good people to talk to within the industry to help you out. And that’s what we try to do.

We try to just, we are all about the writers and promoting you and trying to help you get to where you want to go. And we have so many great professionals in this organization who are publishers, who are publicists, who are agents, who can guide you in the right direction and give you the right information that you need. So that is what we’re here for.

John Goodwin (49:43): Good. And one thing I’ve been talking about multiple interviews in the past has been in 2024 there were just over four million books published. 2025 there’s over five million books published. So one of the biggest problems you’re gonna have as a writer and also as a reader too is discoverability. You know, how can somebody find you as an author to read and how can you choose between all of this onslaught of, a lot of is just tripe, to find something that’s good to read. And this gives you this organization with respect to this genre is vital to be able to, one The Roundup gives you have what, forty reviews or however many every issue. So there’s book reviews in order to find okay what books to read.

Kellen Cutsforth (50:31): Yep, you get your book reviewed. Yep.

John Goodwin (50:39): And now and it also gives you an opportunity to get your book reviewed, but it’s an also a way for you to find out what’s a good book to read. You know, it helps you to weed through this stuff. But discoverability is a really important issue that you need to deal with on either side of that reader or writer coin. And this is an opportunity for you to be able to give yourself the little leg up to accomplish that, to either know what’s good to read or how can I get noticed.

Kellen Cutsforth (51:07): Exactly. Exactly. Yep. And as I said, our whole thing is where do you see yourself as a writer? And this of course in our Western genre, but where do you see yourself as a Western writer? Where do you want to go? We are here to help you get to where you want to go, no matter what it is. If you see yourself as the New York Times bestseller and you have a giant series, then we try to do that. And we have a lot of folks who are New York Times bestsellers in our groups and they know what sells, they know what works.

If you’re just hoping to get your article published, or you, or you just want help publishing independently, or you just have your one story that you want to get out to, that’s what we’re here to help you do. We are here to help you reach that star that you want to get to. So, and we will do our best to help you get there. So that’s what we’re here for.

John Goodwin (52:05): Good, good. So now, how does someone join?

Kellen Cutsforth (52:10): So again, Westernwriters.org. You will see our membership qualifications. We do have qualifications that you need because we are a professional writers group. But if you, the application is online. You can read through the membership qualifications online on Westernwriters.org. And then you can send your application in from there. And our membership review chairman, Jim Jones, will review that and he will then bring to the board.

Are these all quality members and he will move them across. So, and just this morning Jim mentions that we got our first writer who is a video game western writer, which is incredible so we’re thriving we’re out there the westerns are there and it’s not just Louis L’Amour anymore.

Taylor Sheridan of course everybody knows all his stories, those are all Westerns. They may be set in modern time, but those are stories of the West. So you might surprise yourself, writers out there, as I say, like weird westerns and that you might surprise yourself that you’re actually writing a western, that your ideas actually falls right into our wheel.

John Goodwin (53:30): Good, thank you. So now we’re last four and a half minutes or so.

Like I said, inspiration and tips is part of what I provide here. So what would you give as that some things you’ve learned or a tip for somebody trying to break into writing? Could be the Western or just writing in general. What have you found that’s helped you either overcome the humps and hurdles that you had to get over and the points of despair? I can’t do this anymore. You know, that type of stuff. Yeah. But got you through it.

Kellen Cutsforth (54:04): Well, for me, right out of the gate, if it, and again any genre you’re writing in, there are conventions all over the place and they offer these opportunities. Go to one. Show your commitment to your craft by going to one of these and do not be afraid to talk to people. The connections are the most important thing. You never, I don’t write Old West Showdown if I don’t make a connection with Bill Markley.

So it is the connections that you make. Do not just stay at home and say, Okay, well I just have my little thing and that’s and I’ll just somehow it’ll go out to the rest of the world. You have to reach out.

John Goodwin (54:47): Field of Dreams is not… It’s a Hollywood creation. It’s not exactly, it’s not reality.

Kellen Cutsforth (54:49): Right.

Exactly. You have to advocate for you. That’s what I will say. You must advocate for you because no one else will do it. You have to step up. Do not be afraid of some of the good the quality publishing and review places. They will help you with your craft. And don’t be afraid to put a little money and effort into it. That’s what I would say too.

Create the best product you can. And if you wanna, you know, pay a hundred dollars for a beta review or something like that, so they can say, okay, well, you, let’s get your structure right or whatever, you have to be willing to go out there. And it’s just as John was saying, you gotta rise above the noise because as you said, five million books out there.

My gosh, how do you get above that wave of paper, you know, how do you get above the wave of all those stories? You have to be willing to put something in and you will get something out of it. So that’s my advice. Advocate for yourself. Show up at a convention that you want to go. Are you a sci-fi writer? Go to the science fiction convention. Are you writing a weird Western? Come on down to the Western Writers of America convention. All right. Our conventions are open to everybody. You do not have to be a member to come here. So we open it to everyone.

We hope that you would join eventually, but we open it to everyone. So go to one of these, take the time, maybe spend a little bit of money and go there and find out, you know, hey, make the connections. But yeah, you’ve got to advocate for yourself.

John Goodwin (56:36)

Exactly. So I mean I’m going to advocate for like what’s the good first read for you is the Old West Showdown. But anything else that you’d recommend for someone who’s not familiar with you as an author?

Kellen Cutsforth (56:50): Sure. I would, Old West Showdown‘s probably top one. And then our sequel, Standoff at High Noon. And then my favorite. I mean, I’m a Buffalo Bill guy, so that’s my wheelhouse. I have a book called Buffalo Bill and the Birth of American Celebrity. And it’s fun.

I filled it full of tons of images of the old pulp westerns our nickel weeklies and dime novels that Buffalo Bill was featured in. I reprinted the covers of those, which are wild. I mean, there’s one where he’s fighting a skeleton shooting laser beams out of its eyes. And I put in so many different images in there to just have fun with the reader and then a lot of information in there about Buffalo Bill that may be cool.

John Goodwin (57:52): So great. And where do people find you?

Kellen Cutsforth (57:54): They can well, so they can now find me. I run the Western Writers of America X account and they can reach me there. And I am also online and if you have any questions, reach out to me at [email protected]. That is the email address that will come directly to me and that is the best way to get a hold of me.

John Goodwin (58:16): Good, good. Well thank you very much, Kellen.

And thank you for listening. Subscribe to the Writers of the Future Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We’ve also been syndicated on the United Public Radio Network where can find these podcasts as well.

Writers and Illustrators of the Future are contests created by L. Ron Hubbard to provide a means for the aspiring writer and artist to be seen and acknowledged for over four decades. It is free to enter and open to amateur short story writers and artists of science fiction or fantasy.

Again, thank you very much, Kellen.

Kellen Cutsforth (58:45): Thank you for having me.