Goals SFWA - Membership as a primary consideration

I do think that weathering rejections toughens you up as a writer. My own pace is behind yours, @angelslayah, but I have 98 rejections for 2022 to date, and 3 sales--and I had over 100 rejections accumulated before I first tried submitting to the Contest, too. I'd tried to accumulate a hundred to toughen up, because my first six rejections had been so soul-crushing for me that I hadn't known what to do with them.

I think I read, sometime after that, about Stephen King's spike with rejections stuck on it. That got me thinking, hey, I'll aim for 100 rejections, until they don't sting for me any more. I made my first sale somewhere around that hundred mark, too.

They still sting, but they only sting. And I'm used to it now.

Last thought, though--I don't have pro-rate sales (the PodCastle sale's a reprint, so was a flat fee), but SFWA guidelines changed not so long ago to be based on your earnings from genre fiction, rather than a specific count of pro sales from approved pro markets. Whether this is done to encourage more members to qualify to join and pay membership fees, or to reflect actual changes in the genre fiction model as it is today, is anyone's guess. But the upshot is that you may find that a couple of 2021 pro sales puts you in better stead for that SFWA qualification, regardless of what those markets were, than they once did. I checked, and believe I technically qualify for SFWA associate membership at the moment, despite not having any pro-rate sales at all.

Posted by: @doctorjest

I do think that weathering rejections toughens you up as a writer. 

Well, and then after you get used to it, you begin to see it as 'hustle' - getting rejected means I'm out there doin it! I don't want to talk about my response rate this year, till it's over, but, if anything, I'm showing too much hustle!

Fascinating about SFWA, I will have to check out the new specifications. I notice the whole 'approved markest' list seems to be going away. The 'grinder' people are now running some part of that, roo, I see...

Great discussion points on this topic. I think it all just really depends on what your writing goals are. Some people work very hard to win this contest, and that's the end-goal for them. Win the contest, and then they're happy enough with that. Others want to sell enough to join SFWA and that will be enough for them. Others want to go on and publish novels, turn pro, make writing their career, earn enough to quit their day job, remain hobby writers, etc. Whatever your end-goal, the Google Net is a great resource for helping you get there. WOTF is just one clique in the high school social structure. It's not for everyone, and that's okay because there are plenty of other groups out there. I'd love to win this thing, yes, 100%, absolutely. But I also recognize it's not the only game in town. WOTF is the first market I submit to. Once a story fails to win here, I send it on its merry way to all the other markets. Again, just depends on your goals. WOTF can be your entire world, or it can just be one of many worlds. But whichever way you're doing it, HAVE FUN! This is supposed to be a fun experience. If you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong.

@angelslayah I relate heavily to this and I’ve recently made that shift to having a rejection goal. I’m already seeing a big difference in my resilience and my writing skills. 

I have a question for you though! How on earth do you get that many submissions and rejections when most markets seem to have a long turn around time and no multiple or simultaneous submissions? 

Clarkesworld is the only one I have on my list currently that has proven to have a consistently quick turn around. 

I am currently at 19 rejections this year if I count my WOTF HMs and SHM(which are not wins so count For this tally)

Posted by: @clfors

Clarkesworld is the only one I have on my list currently that has proven to have a consistently quick turn around. 

Wait, what about The Dark? I swear they live in some parallel timeline, they're awfully close to sending me back rejections before I've even submitted.

Posted by: @clfors

I have a question for you though! How on earth do you get that many submissions and rejections when most markets seem to have a long turn around time and no multiple or simultaneous submissions? 

I definitely count  the Contest's SHM and HM as "rejections" (I have one of each) but now that you mention it, they should prolly count as "personal" and not "form" by the Grinder's reckoning, as there is "feedback" —if not commentary— involved. Maybe I'll go back and change that, or maybe not. It's not really important. Markets that offer actual comments? Yeah, I want to track that!

As to your question, my answer is going to prove controversial, but hear me out:
I keep 42 submissions out at all times, or try to, and it's not that I ignore a market's "no simultaneous subs" policy, but I try to game the system. Some markets are quick turnarounds, others are long, and still others are unpredictable.
Also, I have my records of when I submitted.

So I try to stack them up so that a long turnaround that accepts simsubs and a shorter turnaround that doesn't receive the same story at about the same time.

Or a I stagger the submission dates to take advantage of these kind of differences. I'm also keenly aware that certain markets (the Contest included) supply no method to withdraw a submission. This strikes me as draconian, and discourteous —just put that funtionality in and make it clear you won't consider resubs of withdrawn stories! That's the decent solution.

But there are times when I have the same story out to a number of nosimsub markets —and then I'm relying on one particular fact: BY FAR, MOST STORIES ARE REJECTED.

I hope I'm not ruining anyone's day by revealing this super secret fact of life —and maybe others who are writing more "tailored" things (I"m definitely stuck with a peculiar voice and my own idiosyncratic themes —a lot like @karyenglish was describing higher up the thread... I figure you can fight that, or you can run with it and I'm runnin) even at the beginning of their writing careers, find they publish 1 in 10 subs or 1 in 20.

If I count only "pro" payments, I'm at 1 in 100.

So, the odds are in my favor, in terms of my "game." I'll say right now that I've been doing this for two and 3/4 years, for a grand total of more than 500 subs and IT HAS NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM.

Tho I will admit I've withdrawn a couple stories from simsub venues when it looked like a nosimsub was maybe going to pounce and the timing was close, that has actually only turned out to be the right decision, I think, once.

So there it is, Cherrie. My dirty secret. 

I'm not prepared to defend myself, mind you, but I will say:
All markets should accept simsubs, especially those with long turnaround times. Pro markets of this type publish mostly, or a lot of agent submitted work, or have established relationships with writers. The only people reading their bloody guidelines are people trying to break into the market. Keeping their work for a quarter of a year before returning it, rejected, with no comments? That is immoral.

I can hear someone telling me, next, what a Bad Idea this is, how Disrespectful. Well, it just so turns out that, as I well know, you can keep doing it for years without getting stuck.
As for respect: Please! That's a two way street! 

A final note: professionals don't all agree on anything, but anyone in the business will tell you:
The publisher is NOT your friend! It is not DOING YOU A FAVOR.
It's poison to swallow any such line.

Posted by: @doctorjest

Posted by: @clfors

Clarkesworld is the only one I have on my list currently that has proven to have a consistently quick turn around. 

Wait, what about The Dark? I swear they live in some parallel timeline, they're awfully close to sending me back rejections before I've even submitted.

And, what is it? Cosmic Roots? I feel like they read the titles and bounce back based on that! Most of my R's from that source are 1-day-after-sub. I waited 11 whole days once and actually got excited!

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

Others want to sell enough to join SFWA and that will be enough for them.

This subthread is meant for those writers!

@angelslayah thanks for sharing your dark secret here. I think it’s important to have all the options and information available when trying to succeed in this field. 

I’ll add cosmic roots to my list with a quick turn-around tag.

I’m still building my list of places to submit so that should help as well. 

As for tailoring to the markets I feel it’s helpful to learn what they like and it gives me story ideas that will then maybe suit them but will still come across with my themes and style.

@doctorjest I’m gonna add them to my list now ? Hopefully they are least time travel enough to read the submissions before rejecting!

@angelslayah 

Hi, just checking out this thread and wanted to answer your question on stats. We've launched 15 or 16 New York Times bestsellers careers so far, and counting: Dean Wesley Smith, David Farland (Wovlerton) both pen names had NYT bestsellers, Nnedi Okorafor, Shaun Tan, Patrick Rothfuss, Sean Williams, Nancy Farmer, Jo Beverley, Tobia S. Buckell, Elizabeth Wein, Eric Flint, Tim Meyers, Lisa Smedman, Brittany Jackson. (7 of those above currently are or were (passed away) judges. 

Then there is Brandon Sanderson who made it to Honorable Mention here and then when pro but he loves the contest so much he is a judge now, Ken Liu just had the TV show launch from his book and he raves about the contest. Check out our recent podcast with him on this website. 

I could ramble on but I think you get the point! We are very proud here of all of our winners and those who "pro out on us" too!

Joni - Contest Director 

Posted by: @jonilabaqui

We've launched 15 or 16 New York Times bestsellers careers so far,

Impressive! 
And thanks; I love good stats.

39 issues, 12 winners per issue, 16 NYT best sellers = 3.4% of winners become NYT best sellers.

However, NYT best seller is not the only measure of a successful writing career.

Posted by: @ease

3.4% of winners become NYT best sellers.

Really, that in itself is pretty impressive! But of course, lots of writers out there doin it are never gonna pen a best seller...

Which reminds me of something I thought of as a kid: Name your Great American Novel "Sixteen weeks on the NYT Best Seller List!"

Posted by: @angelslayah

BY FAR, MOST STORIES ARE REJECTED

What I am gonna write now might seem harsh, but I am writing it from the bottom of my heart, and I don’t know much about publishing process so I am prepared to sound stupid (if that’s so-sorry for this).

Seems to me that you are trying to increase your chances by leveraging probabilistic while you actually hope most people will think your work is crap/(your style might not tinkle everyone’s tastes) so there will never be simultaneous fight over you and you will never have embarrassing situation.

And you are doing this instead of improving your writing so that you feel confident that someone’s gonna love them as you do. 

I don’t know what the reality of publishing is. If its actually as random as you make it, its a brilliant approach, but if its merit based than it seems to me your harming yourself.

The important question to ask yourself right now is why you feel like your stories might not pass.

• If its because even you don’t love them enough to work them out so you are contributing to the tsunami of shallow content that keeps the value away of light, just to be a part of something bigger that in fact you don’t deserve, and for this I hate you.
• If its because your stories are hard and contain elusive intrinsic meaning that might not sell well… DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO GET THEM OUT WITH MY BLESSING!! 😀

BTW.
I don’t know much about SFWA apart from what they say on their page, and many I am missing something.
Is membership in SFWA THAT cool?
What’s the coolest thing about it?
(And why WOTF doesn’t count?)

@vrlass I get where you're trying to go with this, but we don't need hate here.

Publishing is incredibly hard to get into. Stephen King filled a railroad spike with rejection slips. It's not a statistically bad bet for a lesser-published author to "play the game" and sim sub, despite the bad taste it leaves in some others' mouths.

<edited>removed some horrendous autocorrects.

Posted by: @ease

lesser punished author

That's how it feels!

@ease seems like I didn’t make myself clear.

I am not pressing judgement open anyone. I don’t know what really is in @angelsleyah’s stories. I really don’t. And on top of that he made advice to others.

I am only offering a question, directed actually towards people reading this thread in search of answers.

If someone wants just to push through with something of value and value isn’t something easy to sell, than yes, by all means do all the trick necessary to get this to work with all my blessing, we are in the same team.

If someone is just trying to use tricks to push another pile of crap so that its harder for others to shine with value, it makes my dream—of helping the world that much harder, we are not in the same team.

I want to ask one important question that I think anyone should ask themselves, before doing this. 

Why is it so important for your stories to get there?

If you can justify yourself, cool by all means do it. If you cannot, but still want to push them, maybe just think of adding some value to them…

Posted by: @vrlass

And you are doing this instead of improving your writing

I like your color coding, RV. 
Thing is, I'm not at all "doing this instead of improving [my] writing" 

In fact, I can say that just recently what I'm learning to do has been prompted, in part, by the Contest:
A story of mine earned a silver in the WOTF and had previously been "requested rewrites" by one of the "Big Three" -didn't sell.
I figured there was some surface-level detail that kept it under the wire, so I enlisted some readers (I think you were one of them) and set about to figure out what, exactly. 

Turns out, at this kind of "final level" the value (for me) of critique is not to examine item-by-item the notes of others, but to let, as it were, the great plow of critique turn over my story's topsoil.
I think, when I consider I've "polished" a story, it takes on a kind of hard shell, for me and that last round of critique (thanks, BTW) cracked that shell and allowed me to do the real work of polishing.

I consider that I've reached or am reaching a new plateau and I've taken what I've learned and applied it to what I consider my "top" tales, significantly improving them!

A key element of my learning? Well, my writing has a certain cool detachment; my literary heroes —though I don't think I write like any of them— are rather cool in their writing. But in the last phase of polish, it's possible for me to bring out a little warmth. In this way, my work closely resembles brass!

As to why the SFWA, I'm not really interested in selling my interest to others! I'm interested in finding others with my interest...

Posted by: @angelslayah

I think, when I consider I've "polished" a story, it takes on a kind of hard shell, for me and that last round of critique (thanks, BTW) cracked that shell and allowed me to do the real work of polishing.

This is exactly what I wanted for you.
Omg you are like unicorn of receiving critique
😀

Some readers of this thread may also have seen this staggering compilation of advice from Contest luminaries:

https://jarridcantway.com/2022/09/how-to-win-the-writers-of-the-future-contest/

Apropos of this conversation I pulled out these quotes (I've skipped the attribution, go read!):

• One reason my Volume 38 story intrigued the judges is that it differed from what they usually receive

• The biggest mistake I see writers make is placing WotF on a unique pedestal separate from the others, hamstringing their development in the process.

• The funny thing to me about writing is that the advice is always generic—but the writing can’t be.

• Unknown authors trying to get noticed will wither and die if they don’t take risks.

• I just felt like it was a good story, in spite of the rejections. And I trusted my judgment on the matter because I had spent the time learning the craft.

• The very best writing advice: Don’t place your automatic trust in any piece of writing advice. 

• Now, disregard everything I’ve written and tell your story. Break the rules! Don’t worry about showing versus telling. Some stories have won with no dialogue at all. Some have zero try/fail plot structures. What they do have is an interesting story. It’s the single most crucial element.

• And remember, if you pro-out, you’ve done something incredibly correct.

• Don’t be afraid to take risks. After all, what is art without risk? It’s boring, and no one remembers it.

• For me, the story that won came about when I stopped worrying about what I “should” be writing and just relaxed and had fun with the story. Let yourself have your own unique voice and style.

• There is no secret handshake. Stop looking for it. There is no winning “formula.”

• There is no set of “writing rules” that will work for everyone. Everyone who gives out writing advice is really explaining what worked for them—and what worked before may not work again in the future! 

---------------------

THE ADVICE THAT JUMPED OUT AT ME?

Get a writer's group! 

Also, a lot of them had great things to say about the Forum, with which I gotta agree!

@ease 

Correct!   - Joni  

 Think it was @doctorjest who talked about recent changes to the SFWA membership criteria and I had a look and they are now quite different. 

Here's what their Membership Requirements page 

has to say: 

Full Members

Full members can and are encouraged to attend business meetings, vote in elections, and receive access to private discussion forums, SFWA exclusive events and suites at conventions, and publications such as the SFWA Bulletin and the Singularity member newsletter. They may also recommend, nominate, and vote for works to receive the Nebula Awards.

Full member dues are US$100 annually.

A candidate shall be eligible for Full Membership if:

1. Their catalog of paid work in science fiction, fantasy, or related genres equals or exceeds an industry standard set by the board. (US$1000)
2. For co-authored works or team projects, the candidate’s share must equal or exceed an industry standard set by the board. (US$1000)
3. Proof of earnings will be guaranteed by affidavit.

Works must be in the English language in science fiction, fantasy, horror, and related genres.
Genre nonfiction and poetry are not accepted as payments towards membership at this time.

(source: https://www.sfwa.org/about/join-us/sfwa-membership-requirements/#active)

----

As to their Qualifying Markets list (which always seemed to be out-of-date, their site now says:

Qualifying Markets

In January 2022, SFWA unveiled a plan to create a comprehensive market matrix or scorecard to better guide creators toward professional publishers. We are starting with short fiction markets on this rollout, and while the committee makes the finishing touches, we are suspending  the short fiction qualifying markets list. If you were a short fiction market that submitted an application in the last few months, we appreciate your enthusiasm to be a part of the list.

I was curious about that "affidavit" and used the "contact us" field on the site to ask if a Notarized doc would do. That was this morning, this afternoon I got this: 

...........

In the member application, you will find a specific question that asks you to attest to your earnings, which will serve for your affidavit. Beyond that, we do still require some form of third party supporting documents to substantiate information provided in your application form.

Examples of acceptable supporting documents include:

• Publishing contracts
• Royalty reports
• KDP reports (Please highlight the sale(s) you are submitting but do not otherwise alter the report.)
• Official reports from other publishers, (e.g. Itunes, Kobo, Smashwords, Amazon)
• Copies of cashed checks from publisher (other information can be blacked out to protect account information)
• PayPal statements with publisher clearly stated with dollar amounts (other information can be blacked out to protect account information)
• Square statements that clearly detail book sales within the 12 mos period (other information can be blacked out to protect account information)
• Bank statements with highlighted deposits (other information can be blacked out to protect account information

Had read the best fantasy book and Troaell Bridges turned out to be my favorite book. removed link

Posted by: @rileybrown

Had read the best fantasy book and Troaell Bridges turned out to be my favorite book. removed link

Due to spam control the system automatically removes any external links on a new users first 2-3 posts. This prevents bots and malicious posts from being added. Thanks for understanding.

@angelslayah

I also want to qualify for SFWA membership @angelslayah. I think doing WOTF will help because I will be more productive and improve.  Stories I write for WOTF can later be published in SFWA-qualified publications. Plus, if I win or place in WOTF, that's a nice accomplishment to mention in a letter to an agent when I try to get one of my novels-in-progressed published. It's all good.

As I get closer to this goal, I find I'm uncertain about the "catalog of paid" work. Or maybe I'm just wishfully thinking: 

Do contracted sales count, or only paid contracts? In other words: if the sale that puts me over a grand (the limit) pais on publication, can I take my contract at time of sale to the SFWA? Or am I stuck waiting maybe 18 months to payday... 

Anyone know for sure?

For example, I joined Codex Writers by showing a contract, not a deposit receipt. And part of my mind says: it must be based on signed contracts. That's the only thing that makes sense! 

The other part fixates on the wording of the rule...

Posted by: @angelslayah

↑

As I get closer to this goal, I find I'm uncertain about the "catalog of paid" work. Or maybe I'm just wishfully thinking: 

Do contracted sales count, or only paid contracts? In other words: if the sale that puts me over a grand (the limit) pais on publication, can I take my contract at time of sale to the SFWA? Or am I stuck waiting maybe 18 months to payday... 

Anyone know for sure?

For example, I joined Codex Writers by showing a contract, not a deposit receipt. And part of my mind says: it must be based on signed contracts. That's the only thing that makes sense! 

The other part fixates on the wording of the rule...

Seems like these would all be good questions to ask the "new-member admissions" folks directly at SFWA. We're all just amateurs around here!