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What's a good conversion rate when submitting to markets?

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(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I guess you'd call it a conversion rate. At least in direct marketing you would...

The markets I'm submitting to accept between half a percent and a percent of submitted stories. As a writer, what is a good conversion rate? Three percent of your submissions accepted? Ten percent? I don't mean three or ten percent of stories accepted, but submissions.

 
Posted : July 19, 2016 1:34 pm
(@morshana)
Posts: 816
Gold Member
 

I guess you'd call it a conversion rate. At least in direct marketing you would...

The markets I'm submitting to accept between half a percent and a percent of submitted stories. As a writer, what is a good conversion rate? Three percent of your submissions accepted? Ten percent? I don't mean three or ten percent of stories accepted, but submissions.

1.5 % wotf019

Jeanette Gonzalez

HM x4, SHM x2, F x1

 
Posted : July 19, 2016 1:53 pm
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I guess you'd call it a conversion rate. At least in direct marketing you would...

The markets I'm submitting to accept between half a percent and a percent of submitted stories. As a writer, what is a good conversion rate? Three percent of your submissions accepted? Ten percent? I don't mean three or ten percent of stories accepted, but submissions.

1.5 % wotf019

That actually sounds about right for my past submissions to non paying markets at New Pages. I thought I was doing horribly. Guess it was about average. I only just now started submitting to paying markets using the grinder. We will see!

 
Posted : July 19, 2016 3:13 pm
(@mattdovey)
Posts: 183
Bronze Star Member
 

I'm currently at 6.06%. I have seen other writers with significantly higher sub counts come down around the same mark, between 4 and 6%.

That's over 132 lifetime subs (excluding those still pending). Over the first 100, it was 4%. Over the first 50, it was 2%.

Golden Pen winner v32 (2016)
Stories | About | Facebook | Twitter

 
Posted : July 19, 2016 7:19 pm
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I'm currently at 6.06%. I have seen other writers with significantly higher sub counts come down around the same mark, between 4 and 6%.

That's over 132 lifetime subs (excluding those still pending). Over the first 100, it was 4%. Over the first 50, it was 2%.

Good to know.

This stuff should be common knowledge in every writing book. There's no telling how many writers have quit, thinking they suck because they have a "measly" 2% conversion rate.

 
Posted : July 19, 2016 10:46 pm
(@amoskalik)
Posts: 438
Silver Member
 

I do not have proof of this, but suspect this to be true. Two things help your submission. One, having some previous creds in your cover letter (this guy's stories can't be too bad, so and so bought one) and two, submitting to that market before (This is the fifth story from this guy this year. He's a dependable writer and his other stories weren't too bad even though they didn't fit. I'll give this one a chance).

That would explain why acceptance rates go up over time anyway.

 
Posted : July 20, 2016 3:08 am
(@morshana)
Posts: 816
Gold Member
 

I do not have proof of this, but suspect this to be true. Two things help your submission. One, having some previous creds in your cover letter (this guy's stories can't be too bad, so and so bought one) and two, submitting to that market before (This is the fifth story from this guy this year. He's a dependable writer and his other stories weren't too bad even though they didn't fit. I'll give this one a chance).

That would explain why acceptance rates go up over time anyway.

Also, our writing hopefully improves with practice. wotf007

Jeanette Gonzalez

HM x4, SHM x2, F x1

 
Posted : July 20, 2016 3:19 am
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I do not have proof of this, but suspect this to be true. Two things help your submission. One, having some previous creds in your cover letter (this guy's stories can't be too bad, so and so bought one) and two, submitting to that market before (This is the fifth story from this guy this year. He's a dependable writer and his other stories weren't too bad even though they didn't fit. I'll give this one a chance).

That would explain why acceptance rates go up over time anyway.

Could be a case of persistence melting resistance.

 
Posted : July 20, 2016 5:23 am
(@mattdovey)
Posts: 183
Bronze Star Member
 

I do not have proof of this, but suspect this to be true. Two things help your submission. One, having some previous creds in your cover letter (this guy's stories can't be too bad, so and so bought one) and two, submitting to that market before (This is the fifth story from this guy this year. He's a dependable writer and his other stories weren't too bad even though they didn't fit. I'll give this one a chance).

That would explain why acceptance rates go up over time anyway.

TBH I think it's just getting better at writing the more you do. I know a number of markets don't even read the cover letter until after they've read the submission, and anonymous submissions are becoming more common (FFO, Escape Pod, Diabolical Plots...).

Look at it from the other angle: an editor isn't going to buy a story just because you've sent five others this year, or to keep up with the Joneses and publish you because Market X did. They're only going to buy a story that's good enough and fits them. And I wouldn't want it any other way--I want to earn my sales, not have them out of pity wotf011

In other words, and to paraphrase Dory: just keep writing, just keep writing... and you will get better, and you will start to get sales.

Golden Pen winner v32 (2016)
Stories | About | Facebook | Twitter

 
Posted : July 20, 2016 7:22 pm
(@laurieg)
Posts: 58
Bronze Member
 

I truly think it's all of the above, except anonymous subs. I've heard several editors ( Stan Schmidt, Ginger Buchanan, Dean Wesley Smith and others) say good covers and persistent submissions might edge a story over other submissions. But as Matt says, it still has to be a good story, so quality trumps all.

http://laurie-gail.livejournal.com

2 time Finalist
4 time Semi-Finalist
lots of HM's and Rejects

 
Posted : July 21, 2016 4:25 am
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I sort of agree with all of you. Pre-framing and persistence work in salesmanship, but the product must also be so good that it can't be ignored.

 
Posted : July 21, 2016 4:27 am
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

I've been through this before, but here is my ratio(s) again:

2012-2013 1.09%
2014-2015 2.29%
2016 so far 5.71%, and I hope I'll make 300 submissions by the year's end.

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : July 23, 2016 4:12 am
(@morshana)
Posts: 816
Gold Member
 

That's awesome, George! wotf010

Jeanette Gonzalez

HM x4, SHM x2, F x1

 
Posted : July 23, 2016 4:35 am
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

That's awesome, George! wotf010

Thanks, Jeanette! wotf007

There's a downside of course; nowadays I spend much more than half my available writing time on submitting, re-submitting, re-formatting for submissions, writing cover letters, trying to decide where to submit next, keeping track of my submissions, and mundane things like that wotf018

On the other hand, there's no skipping around it wotf012

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : July 26, 2016 3:14 am
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

George,

What's your submission strategy, if you don't mind my asking?

Mine has been to submit to these markets in order:

F&SF
Clarkeworld
IGMS
WOTF

Then I have no strategy beyond that.

 
Posted : July 30, 2016 7:54 am
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

George,

What's your submission strategy, if you don't mind my asking?

Mine has been to submit to these markets in order:

F&SF
Clarkeworld
IGMS
WOTF

Then I have no strategy beyond that.

It's a bit complicated. I have a spreadsheet with all available pro and semi-pro markets, with data collected from the Grinder, which I try to update every week or so. When I'm sending out a story, I make a list of the top paying markets that it can go out to (excluding the ones that are temporarily closed, the ones that have already rejected the story, the ones that don't take multiple submissions and I already have a story in their queue, the ones that the story can't go out to because it's too short or too long and the ones where the story is not a good fit for -- for example, anything can go to CW or FSF, but IGMS is PG-13, BCS only takes secondary world fantasy, Analog takes only hard SF, etc) and then I decide between the remaining ones. I submit to higher-paying first, with the extra consideration of speedier replies and easier submission manner -- for example I prefer Moksha and Submittable to emailing stories and IGMS is the worst). Sounds daunting? It is. But I have to submit the stories, or there's no point in writing them. And keep in mind that I have a lot of stories in circulation and many of them have already been to 20 markets or more, so there's no way I can keep submitting without diligent record-keeping and market research.

WOTF is a different ballgame, as it's only one every three months and very few of my stories are suited to it, so for that one it's not where to send but what to send.

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : July 30, 2016 8:47 pm
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

George,

What's your submission strategy, if you don't mind my asking?

Mine has been to submit to these markets in order:

F&SF
Clarkeworld
IGMS
WOTF

Then I have no strategy beyond that.

It's a bit complicated. I have a spreadsheet with all available pro and semi-pro markets, with data collected from the Grinder, which I try to update every week or so. When I'm sending out a story, I make a list of the top paying markets that it can go out to (excluding the ones that are temporarily closed, the ones that have already rejected the story, the ones that don't take multiple submissions and I already have a story in their queue, the ones that the story can't go out to because it's too short or too long and the ones where the story is not a good fit for -- for example, anything can go to CW or FSF, but IGMS is PG-13, BCS only takes secondary world fantasy, Analog takes only hard SF, etc) and then I decide between the remaining ones. I submit to higher-paying first, with the extra consideration of speedier replies and easier submission manner -- for example I prefer Moksha and Submittable to emailing stories and IGMS is the worst). Sounds daunting? It is. But I have to submit the stories, or there's no point in writing them. And keep in mind that I have a lot of stories in circulation and many of them have already been to 20 markets or more, so there's no way I can keep submitting without diligent record-keeping and market research.

WOTF is a different ballgame, as it's only one every three months and very few of my stories are suited to it, so for that one it's not where to send but what to send.

Thanks! That helps. I appreciate your time.

 
Posted : July 31, 2016 1:05 am
(@amoskalik)
Posts: 438
Silver Member
 

George,

What's your submission strategy, if you don't mind my asking?

Mine has been to submit to these markets in order:

F&SF
Clarkeworld
IGMS
WOTF

Then I have no strategy beyond that.

It's a bit complicated. I have a spreadsheet with all available pro and semi-pro markets, with data collected from the Grinder, which I try to update every week or so. When I'm sending out a story, I make a list of the top paying markets that it can go out to (excluding the ones that are temporarily closed, the ones that have already rejected the story, the ones that don't take multiple submissions and I already have a story in their queue, the ones that the story can't go out to because it's too short or too long and the ones where the story is not a good fit for -- for example, anything can go to CW or FSF, but IGMS is PG-13, BCS only takes secondary world fantasy, Analog takes only hard SF, etc) and then I decide between the remaining ones. I submit to higher-paying first, with the extra consideration of speedier replies and easier submission manner -- for example I prefer Moksha and Submittable to emailing stories and IGMS is the worst). Sounds daunting? It is. But I have to submit the stories, or there's no point in writing them. And keep in mind that I have a lot of stories in circulation and many of them have already been to 20 markets or more, so there's no way I can keep submitting without diligent record-keeping and market research.

WOTF is a different ballgame, as it's only one every three months and very few of my stories are suited to it, so for that one it's not where to send but what to send.

Actually, The Grinder handles a lot of these details for you. When you search for new markets to submit to it can exclude markets you already submitted that story to, markets that are closed, markets where you have another story submitted to, markets that do not accept a story of that length, etc. You can tweak any of these settings as you see fit, but by default most of these are already set up when you do a market search. You can also sort by pay scale, response time, etc. as well.

 
Posted : July 31, 2016 4:38 am
(@george-nik)
Posts: 494
Silver Star Member
 

George,

What's your submission strategy, if you don't mind my asking?

Mine has been to submit to these markets in order:

F&SF
Clarkeworld
IGMS
WOTF

Then I have no strategy beyond that.

It's a bit complicated. I have a spreadsheet with all available pro and semi-pro markets, with data collected from the Grinder, which I try to update every week or so. When I'm sending out a story, I make a list of the top paying markets that it can go out to (excluding the ones that are temporarily closed, the ones that have already rejected the story, the ones that don't take multiple submissions and I already have a story in their queue, the ones that the story can't go out to because it's too short or too long and the ones where the story is not a good fit for -- for example, anything can go to CW or FSF, but IGMS is PG-13, BCS only takes secondary world fantasy, Analog takes only hard SF, etc) and then I decide between the remaining ones. I submit to higher-paying first, with the extra consideration of speedier replies and easier submission manner -- for example I prefer Moksha and Submittable to emailing stories and IGMS is the worst). Sounds daunting? It is. But I have to submit the stories, or there's no point in writing them. And keep in mind that I have a lot of stories in circulation and many of them have already been to 20 markets or more, so there's no way I can keep submitting without diligent record-keeping and market research.

WOTF is a different ballgame, as it's only one every three months and very few of my stories are suited to it, so for that one it's not where to send but what to send.

Actually, The Grinder handles a lot of these details for you. When you search for new markets to submit to it can exclude markets you already submitted that story to, markets that are closed, markets where you have another story submitted to, markets that do not accept a story of that length, etc. You can tweak any of these settings as you see fit, but by default most of these are already set up when you do a market search. You can also sort by pay scale, response time, etc. as well.

The Grinder is great and it's 99% reliable. But I've seen it wrong in various occasions (mostly regarding markets who have recently changed their guidelines) so I prefer to maintain my own database.

George Nikolopoulos
WOTF: 1 SF, 1 SHM, 4 HM
Fiction (EN): 43 stories sold, 29 published
Fiction (GR): c.10 stories published & a children’s novel
Amazon Page

 
Posted : July 31, 2016 8:08 pm
Disgruntled Peony
(@disgruntledpeony)
Posts: 1283
Platinum Member
 

http://lithub.com/why-you-should-aim-fo ... ns-a-year/

I found a thing! Thought it might be useful.

If you are in difficulties with a book, try the element of surprise: attack it at an hour when it isn't expecting it. ~ H.G. Wells
If a person offend you, and you are in doubt as to whether it was intentional or not, do not resort to extreme measures; simply watch your chance and hit him with a brick. ~ Mark Twain
R, SF, SHM, SHM, SHM, F, R, HM, SHM, R, HM, R, F, SHM, SHM, SHM, SF, SHM, 1st Place (Q2 V38)
Ticknor Tales
Twitter
4th and Starlight: e-book | paperback

 
Posted : August 1, 2016 9:48 am
(@reigheena)
Posts: 110
Bronze Star Member
 

I like that thing. I also have a rejection goal. Because of it, I got held for consideration at a market I wouldn't have submitted to otherwise.

Now to prepare my story to go get another rejection. <img src="{wotf}:wotf024:

v 29 : - HM - - | v 30 : - - - - | v 31 : - - - HM | v 32 : - HM - HM | v 33 : R HM R SHM | v 34 : SHM SHM HM R | v 35 : HM R R R | v 36 : - R R R | v 37 : - - - HM | v 38 : - - - HM | v 39 : HM - - R | v 40: - HM - SHM | v 41: R
My published works

 
Posted : August 4, 2016 4:03 am
(@ishmael)
Posts: 793
Gold Member
 

I don't really see it as aiming for rejections; rejections are just an inevitable consequence of voluminous submissions.

I've noted this on another thread, but it's relevant here. Last year I made a neat round 300 submissions, garnering 9 acceptances and 267 rejections, of which 48 were personal. It doesn't add up because of dead letters and carry overs of responses into the current calendar year.
I need to go a bit to keep up that rate of acceptances this year, but I'm still in there pitching! fistinair

1 x SF, 2 x SHM, 11 x HM, WotF batting average .583
Blog The View From Sliabh Mannan.

 
Posted : August 4, 2016 4:33 am
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

salute

fistinair   yaaar!

 
Posted : August 4, 2016 5:55 am
(@dstein)
Posts: 8
Active Member
 

I don't really see it as aiming for rejections; rejections are just an inevitable consequence of voluminous submissions.

I've noted this on another thread, but it's relevant here. Last year I made a neat round 300 submissions, garnering 9 acceptances and 267 rejections, of which 48 were personal. It doesn't add up because of dead letters and carry overs of responses into the current calendar year.
I need to go a bit to keep up that rate of acceptances this year, but I'm still in there pitching! fistinair

Ishmael, how on earth do you make 300 submissions in a year? I'm juggling maybe six publishable stories and I think the shortest rejection turnaround I've ever gotten was about a week. But it's often a month or more.

V32Q3: HM
V32Q4: R
V33Q1: First-Place Finalist

 
Posted : August 10, 2016 2:32 pm
(@ishmael)
Posts: 793
Gold Member
 

I have over forty active stories. Experience has taught me the wisdom of Heinlein's Rule 'Keep it on the market until it sells.'

1 x SF, 2 x SHM, 11 x HM, WotF batting average .583
Blog The View From Sliabh Mannan.

 
Posted : August 11, 2016 4:43 am
(@dstein)
Posts: 8
Active Member
 

I have over forty active stories. Experience has taught me the wisdom of Heinlein's Rule 'Keep it on the market until it sells.'

Ah, that'll do it. I probably also need to reduce the turnaround on my demoralized, "nobody will ever love this story" period following a rejection.

V32Q3: HM
V32Q4: R
V33Q1: First-Place Finalist

 
Posted : August 12, 2016 9:12 am
(@jason-parker)
Posts: 71
Bronze Member
Topic starter
 

I have over forty active stories. Experience has taught me the wisdom of Heinlein's Rule 'Keep it on the market until it sells.'

wotf009

 
Posted : August 12, 2016 12:05 pm
(@mattdovey)
Posts: 183
Bronze Star Member
 

I have over forty active stories. Experience has taught me the wisdom of Heinlein's Rule 'Keep it on the market until it sells.'

Ah, that'll do it. I probably also need to reduce the turnaround on my demoralized, "nobody will ever love this story" period following a rejection.

This is the advantage of the "know a story's next market in anticipation of the rejection" tactic--that feeling can't stop you Smile
It's also useful if you have some form of community submission challenge, so you want the point for subbing more than you want to wallow in your misery. I may be speaking from experience here.

Golden Pen winner v32 (2016)
Stories | About | Facebook | Twitter

 
Posted : August 14, 2016 8:10 pm
(@dstein)
Posts: 8
Active Member
 

I have over forty active stories. Experience has taught me the wisdom of Heinlein's Rule 'Keep it on the market until it sells.'

Ah, that'll do it. I probably also need to reduce the turnaround on my demoralized, "nobody will ever love this story" period following a rejection.

This is the advantage of the "know a story's next market in anticipation of the rejection" tactic--that feeling can't stop you Smile
It's also useful if you have some form of community submission challenge, so you want the point for subbing more than you want to wallow in your misery. I may be speaking from experience here.

That's something I hadn't considered--using groups to hold me accountable for submitting as well as writing. That's a good idea.

V32Q3: HM
V32Q4: R
V33Q1: First-Place Finalist

 
Posted : August 18, 2016 5:27 am
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