NPR's "Top 100 Sci-Fi and Fantasy books" of all time

Fine, but I own the scale for films. It's Hudson Hawk all the way, baby!

You may be right . . . I haven't seen it.

It's available streaming on Netflix. No excuses!

No, no, if I see it, then I'll have to argue the point!

No, no, if I see it, then I'll have to argue the point!

Yeah, but I actually do think you'd enjoy it. It's a heck of a lot of fun, provided you go in with your expectations of what a movie "should" be turned off. (Or turned on in "hyper" mode, depending on which works better for you when dealing with absurdism.)

But the closest we can come to assessing the requirements of the market as a whole is to see what the market hooses, and then try to analyze why they chose that. If we start with a preconception that it's not quality because we say so, we make it harder to understand the market's definition of quality.

I'm not sure if we're disagreeing. I have no problem with analyzing commercially successful works and trying to understand why they do well in the market. But you should be very skeptical about whether you also value what the market is rewarding. Stephanie Meyer, Christopher Paolini, and Terry Goodkind may dramatically outsell Paolo Bacigalupi, Catherynne Valente, and Daniel Abraham, but I still would much rather emulate the second group.

Fine, but I own the scale for films. It's Hudson Hawk all the way, baby!

You may be right . . . I haven't seen it.

I should get a suite at World Con next year (if I can move fast enough!), so we can correct that for you and anyone else so deprived.

If you do that, I'll come watch. In the meantime, I've also added it to my Netflix instant queue. I note, however, that Netflix says the average user rating is 3.4, but the best guess for me is 2.3, which is about as great a disparity as I've seen.

But you should be very skeptical about whether you also value what the market is rewarding. Stephanie Meyer, Christopher Paolini, and Terry Goodkind may dramatically outsell Paolo Bacigalupi, Catherynne Valente, and Daniel Abraham, but I still would much rather emulate the second group.

Right. Personal quality judgments can't be dictated by the market. I don't care how many people tell me otherwise, I don't find Saturday Night Live funny, no matter which era we're talking about. So I'll find something else to do with my Saturday nights. But those are still preferences, not objective assessments. I think we get ourselves in trouble when we blame the market for not sharing our preferences.

I'm also not saying you should follow the market. I don't care what the market wants, I'm going to write what I want to write, and then try to find a market for it. If there's no market for it, I'm still going to write what I want to write.

But if we're studying the market to try to understand what works, I think a preconception that popular works aren't quality works in the judgment of the market is self-deluding.

OK, that clarifies it. Ultimately, we don't disagree.

What a weak flamewar.

If you do that, I'll come watch. In the meantime, I've also added it to my Netflix instant queue. I note, however, that Netflix says the average user rating is 3.4, but the best guess for me is 2.3, which is about as great a disparity as I've seen.

Just realize that the studio that marketed it is now out of business, and deservedly so: they marketed the film as a Bruce Willis action movie. It's not, it's a parody of a Bruce Willis action movie -- that just happens to star Bruce Willis. It's not supposed to be believable, it's supposed to be over the top. It's influences are more the Three Stooges and Bugs Bunny than Die Hard.

And I don't expect everyone to like it. The market clearly disagrees with me. But I'll watch it every chance I get. After yesterday, I had to watch it again, and switch my icon to boot!

I guess now I've got to start planning a Hawk party at WorldCon. Some day, I'll learn not to blurt out every wild idea that comes to mind...

Why didn't you say Bruce Willis was in it? I'm a sucker for those classic action movies and their parodies.

Last Action Hero anyone?

Last Action Hero anyone?

Exactly! I don't like it as much as Hawk, but I like it far better than the audience did at the time. It was a great Arnold Schwarzenegger parody, starring Arnold Schwarzenegger; but the idiotic studio didn't market it as a parody, and so (tying back to my theme here, see how clever this is?) it didn't meet the audience's expectations. Their requirements, you might say.

OK, so we have to add Last Action Hero to the party...

Wow. I've only read 24 of them - and that's including most of a series as the whole series in some cases ...

This is actually a really neat link. It gives me an idea of what I should be downloading for my Kindle

This is actually a really neat link. It gives me an idea of what I should be downloading for my Kindle

Remember, YMMV. Popular polls from broad cross-sections of the population will tend to lump things you would love in with thing you wouldn't be able to stand.

Remember, YMMV. Popular polls from broad cross-sections of the population will tend to lump things you would love in with thing you wouldn't be able to stand.

Absolutely! Still, it can't hurt to try broadening my knowledge-base, although the library might be safer (investment-wise) for some of them.

I've only read 18, but I've started over 50.

Sunshine

Loved that book. Love Robin McKinley, altogether.

Dan Brown

I read till the end, and I put a *lot* of books down after fifty pages. Did the prose make me gag? Sometimes. ("Harrison Ford in Harris tweed," agh, agh, somebody bring me a bucket.) Can the man spin a story? Absolutely. Which is more important? Apparently, the ability to spin a story (without *too* many gag moments).

And the flames begin!

Martin, I find this incredibly encouraging. These aren't even embers on the brink of death. This is one of the most civil forums I've ever been on.

Martin, I find this incredibly encouraging. These aren't even embers on the brink of death. This is one of the most civil forums I've ever been on.

We tend to flame with humor 'round these parts.

Martin, I find this incredibly encouraging. These aren't even embers on the brink of death. This is one of the most civil forums I've ever been on.

We tend to flame with humor 'round these parts.
Aw, shucks, I call that toasting marshmallows where I come from. Can we get a group hug here?

Much madness is divinest sense, to a discerning eye; much sense, the starkest madness. (Emily Dickinson)
http://www.graysonbraymorris.com
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Something Awesome

Something Awesome

OMG, the awesomeness factor is off the chart! Or, well, it is the chart! Love the question about do you like stories about orphaned farm boys.

I was pleased to see that following my true path took me to one of the books on the list that I have both read and loved!