Contest Questions

Thanks for the confirmation, Glib! I want those scanners to go look somewhere else, so I'll definitely make the change.

So, along those lines, is it considered copyright infringement if a character is wearing a Jon Snow costume at a party?

Oh, I thought you meant like in real life.
In a story? No way. Don't do it.

So, it's okay for me to wear my Jon Snow outfit in real life? 'Cause my boss said not to do it again.

Well, then, you definitely need a new boss.
I'd let my employees wear them all the time!

But they don't. Damn it.

Can you publish your short story elsewhere once the contest is over since R, HM, SHM, SF and I think some F are not published by galaxy press? I would like to see mine in print.

Posted by: @craydimensional

Can you publish your short story elsewhere once the contest is over since R, HM, SHM, SF and I think some F are not published by galaxy press? I would like to see mine in print.

You can certainly send it elsewhere after the quarter results are in. WotF did not publish your story and there was no contract. Even if they did publish it, you retain all rights with WotF, there's no exclusivity period. But here's something to think about. You can't resubmit Finalists, nor Semifinalists because you get a critique from the judge, which would give you an unfair advantage. But Dave has said he often gives out Silver HMs because he hopes the writer will improve it and send it in again. It was close. So think carefully on those. You might send those out for a couple of quarters to test the waters, giving it a cool down period with the Contest, and if no one bites, give it a once over and try the Contest again with it.

Your work, your call. But I'm happy when I hear people in here are sending their stories out to other markets besides WotF. This will be your best sale, but you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. 

Cheers!

Thank you Wulf that was an excellent tip about the SHM. I will keep that in mind if I am honored with them.

Ooh! I wasn't aware that we could resubmit a story. I always that figured any given entry was one-and-done; just one chance to sink or swim as far as the contest was concerned. I have a new one for third quarter, but this is very good to know for the future.   

I am considering revising a story that received a SHM last year and resubmitting it for this quarter. It is currently told in a third person, linear format and I am considering changing it to a first person, frame story but I am not sure how it would work. I have never done a frame story in a short story and am not sure if I've ever read one. Does any one have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

@nvhaskell

Regarding changing pov's, I don't have much of an opinion, except to ask if you really want to do it. For me, rewriting a story without rewriting it, if you know what I mean, is hard. For me, it's pure drudgery, since the story is already written, only there are so many things to change because when I was writing in one tense and pov I was in the flow of the story. So now I have to figure out how to keep that flow without actually writing a new story.

Regarding frame stories, the best I know is Pat Rothfuss's Name of the Wind. He also originally wrote the story without the frame, and worked afterward, which changed the whole story. It worked great. 

But you asked about short stories, which I forgot. In V32 Sean Williams has a great story which I would call a frame story. Perhaps follow his example, and only use one point of view without ever really changing focus.

@reuben Thank you for your response!

I will check out Sean William's story and, I agree, changing the pov may be pure drudgery and ultimately not worth it. I may just stick with third person and add the frame elements. 

@nvhaskell A hundred percent. I was unclear though. When you read the story you'll see, but the story is told entirely in first person. Either one can work, though. 

Posted by: @nvhaskell

I am considering revising a story that received a SHM last year and resubmitting it for this quarter. It is currently told in a third person, linear format and I am considering changing it to a first person, frame story but I am not sure how it would work. I have never done a frame story in a short story and am not sure if I've ever read one. Does any one have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

I do warn writers against writing in first person for this Contest, mostly because we had about an hour long lecture at the WotF workshop by all three instructors that third person past tense is the only true way to tell a story. And how it's an instant turn-off for some of the judges. They REALLY don't like it. Something to consider. Here's my Super Secret on it. I hope it helps.

https://writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/25/#post-26289

@wulfmoon thank you for this, really good information. Maybe I should go back and re-write two of my submissions from last year which were done in first person. The one I am editing now I will keep in third person, and add some frame elements.

I will definitely use this information moving forward. Thanks again!

Posted by: @wulfmoon

Posted by: @nvhaskell

I am considering revising a story that received a SHM last year and resubmitting it for this quarter. It is currently told in a third person, linear format and I am considering changing it to a first person, frame story but I am not sure how it would work. I have never done a frame story in a short story and am not sure if I've ever read one. Does any one have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

I do warn writers against writing in first person for this Contest, mostly because we had about an hour long lecture at the WotF workshop by all three instructors that third person past tense is the only true way to tell a story. And how it's an instant turn-off for some of the judges. They REALLY don't like it. Something to consider. Here's my Super Secret on it. I hope it helps.

https://writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/25/#post-26289

You say that but in the past few volumes there have been a lot of first person stories. In fact most winning stories go against a lot of what is said by the judges and the online workshop imo 

You say that but in the past few volumes there have been a lot of first person stories. In fact most winning stories go against a lot of what is said by the judges and the online workshop imo 

You’re right - because the writers impressed the judges in one way or another. The argument against first person isn’t that it won’t work at all, it’s that it makes your task a little harder.

Posted by: @nvhaskell

I am considering revising a story that received a SHM last year and resubmitting it for this quarter. It is currently told in a third person, linear format and I am considering changing it to a first person, frame story but I am not sure how it would work. I have never done a frame story in a short story and am not sure if I've ever read one. Does any one have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

As a fan, I have always found first person the most compelling way to tell action stories or sequences.

One of my favorite examples is Last Command, a short story by Keith Laumer. It's in a collection called Annals of the Dinochrome Brigade which you can read for free on Scribd.

Laumer starts in first person and switches back and forth into omniscient. Telling a story all the way through in first person can be exhausting for the reader.

It's worth a look.

Do judges check our math?

My idea is that aliens build a 'Niven Ring' around our moon. The ring rotates at one revolution in 24 hours to provide day and night cycles. Once in a while there's an eclipse.

The preliminary calculation showed that to generate one gravity at a twenty-four hour rotational period, the Niven Ring would need to be almost 2 million kilometers in diameter. Since the moon orbits Earth at about 340,000 km, this wouldn't be practical. A smaller ring 50,000 km in diameter would rotate a little more than eight times a day to generate one gravity.

In the TV show Babylon 5 they never mentioned the Coriolis acceleration which would have been noticeable. I figure it would be a 5 cm or so if you dropped something from shoulder height. On a 50,000 ring it shouldn't be very noticeable at all.

Anyway, if I made stuff up and wrote it, would the judges know how to check for inaccuracies? Not that I'm necessarily going to do that. But they might know something I don't. I've heard that some MIT students heckled Larry Niven before the second Ringworld novel came out because, as described in the first book, Ringworld is unstable.

First off, if this is a current or future entry you probably want to edit the post to remove any story identifying info.

Secondly, I’m sure they could. These are masters of science fiction (and fantasy). That being said, I suspect as long as things are believable and convincing, the math doesn’t have to be perfect. Just don’t violate the rules of the story. 

Posted by: @rschibler

First off, if this is a current or future entry you probably want to edit the post to remove any story identifying info.

No, this is an abandoned story idea. Even a 50,000 km ring around the moon would have severe problems with tidal forces. Even Scrith might not be strong enough.

There is a difference between science fiction, which generally relies on real science to tell the story, and fantasy or even science fantasy. If you set out to write hard scifi, I think following those rules is probably important. Some of the judges have advanced science degrees or decades of experience writing scifi. But it’s still fiction, so there’s nothing stopping us from making things up either. Just establish the promise to the reader early and don’t violate that, I think. 

Posted by: @rschibler

 Just establish the promise to the reader early and don’t violate that, I think. 

Well said! Thank you.

Posted by: @pdblake

Posted by: @wulfmoon

Posted by: @nvhaskell

I am considering revising a story that received a SHM last year and resubmitting it for this quarter. It is currently told in a third person, linear format and I am considering changing it to a first person, frame story but I am not sure how it would work. I have never done a frame story in a short story and am not sure if I've ever read one. Does any one have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance. 

I do warn writers against writing in first person for this Contest, mostly because we had about an hour long lecture at the WotF workshop by all three instructors that third person past tense is the only true way to tell a story. And how it's an instant turn-off for some of the judges. They REALLY don't like it. Something to consider. Here's my Super Secret on it. I hope it helps.

https://writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/25/#post-26289

You say that but in the past few volumes there have been a lot of first person stories. In fact most winning stories go against a lot of what is said by the judges and the online workshop imo 

I say that because the judges say that. It’s a fact, and I’m sharing it. I’ve attended the workshop, I heard the strong lecture. Doesn’t mean I didn’t win with a first person story, and doesn’t mean Dave will automatically can a first person story. A powerful story will rise against all biases and so-called  rules. Doesn’t mean one should ignore what the judges are saying. Just means a story is going to have a harder time of making it to the top.

Posted by: @agathon

Do judges check our math?

My idea is that aliens build a 'Niven Ring' around our moon. The ring rotates at one revolution in 24 hours to provide day and night cycles. Once in a while there's an eclipse.

The preliminary calculation showed that to generate one gravity at a twenty-four hour rotational period, the Niven Ring would need to be almost 2 million kilometers in diameter. Since the moon orbits Earth at about 340,000 km, this wouldn't be practical. A smaller ring 50,000 km in diameter would rotate a little more than eight times a day to generate one gravity.

In the TV show Babylon 5 they never mentioned the Coriolis acceleration which would have been noticeable. I figure it would be a 5 cm or so if you dropped something from shoulder height. On a 50,000 ring it shouldn't be very noticeable at all.

Anyway, if I made stuff up and wrote it, would the judges know how to check for inaccuracies? Not that I'm necessarily going to do that. But they might know something I don't. I've heard that some MIT students heckled Larry Niven before the second Ringworld novel came out because, as described in the first book, Ringworld is unstable.

I will say if you get Larry Niven for a judge, or Gregory Benford, they’re going to check your math. ? I believe you won’t score high with them if you get it wrong. 

Posted by: @wulfmoon

I say that because the judges say that. It’s a fact, and I’m sharing it. I’ve attended the workshop, I heard the strong lecture. Doesn’t mean I didn’t win with a first person story, and doesn’t mean Dave will automatically can a first person story. A powerful story will rise against all biases and so-called  rules. Doesn’t mean one should ignore what the judges are saying. Just means a story is going to have a harder time of making it to the top.

You know just before I read your post I was thinking of doing something in first person. I've never tried it before. Think I'll try it at some point but I doubt it'll be good enough for wotf but you don't know until you try  

I'm not a fan of first person myself but I note there are quite a few exceptions these days. Your story being one of them. 

Posted by: @pdblake

Posted by: @wulfmoon

I say that because the judges say that. It’s a fact, and I’m sharing it. I’ve attended the workshop, I heard the strong lecture. Doesn’t mean I didn’t win with a first person story, and doesn’t mean Dave will automatically can a first person story. A powerful story will rise against all biases and so-called  rules. Doesn’t mean one should ignore what the judges are saying. Just means a story is going to have a harder time of making it to the top.

You know just before I read your post I was thinking of doing something in first person. I've never tried it before. Think I'll try it at some point but I doubt it'll be good enough for wotf but you don't know until you try  

I'm not a fan of first person myself but I note there are quite a few exceptions these days. Your story being one of them. 

I recommend that everyone master third person limited, past tense, before experimenting in other forms. So do Tim Powers, Scott Card, and David Farland at the Writers of the Future Workshop. You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time. When it's done right, it's immediately spotted by pros. You know you're in the hands of someone that's worked hard at mastering their craft. I'm a professional freelance editor. I'm also an assistant editor at a pro magazine. You can't go wrong getting this one down, and it will take tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of words to get it right.

But when you do, you'll be writing powerful stories. Because we'll experience as readers exactly what your protagonist is experiencing as we follow them on their journey. Do your job right, and we'll be the ones on your journey.

Posted by: @wulfmoon

You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time

What are the common traps or mistakes you see aspiring writers make with 3rd person limited, past tense?

Posted by: @wulfmoon

recommend that everyone master third person limited, past tense, before experimenting in other forms. So do Tim Powers, Scott Card, and David Farland at the Writers of the Future Workshop. You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time. When it's done right, it's immediately spotted by pros. You know you're in the hands of someone that's worked hard at mastering their craft. I'm a professional freelance editor. I'm also an assistant editor at a pro magazine. You can't go wrong getting this one down, and it will take tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of words to get it right.

But when you do, you'll be writing powerful stories. Because we'll experience as readers exactly what your protagonist is experiencing as we follow them on their journey. Do your job right, and we'll be the ones on your journey.

Here's some great advice! Thank you Wulfmoon!

Posted by: @babooher

Posted by: @wulfmoon

You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time

What are the common traps or mistakes you see aspiring writers make with 3rd person limited, past tense?

They cheat.

It's very hard to stay inside the head of your protagonist. It means you can only put on the page what the heroine thinks, sees, feels, reads, tastes, smells, touches, KNOWS. So the aspiring writer hops off their heroine's shoulder when the going gets rough and jumps over to someone else's that has the information the story needs. 

They'll also show things happening that the hero could never see. Or they'll jump from head to head (head hopping) after being exclusively in 3P limited. Head hopping is a huge problem. Not only is it disorienting, it dilutes the power of the narrative, because you are dividing the experience between other characters.

I need to do a Super Secret on this. Most of the Secrets I've written here were born from editing workshop members' stories, or clients' stories. There are mistakes you see over and over again--most aspiring writers make the exact same ones. Yes, I did, too. Weed those out, and you're well on the way to crafting a professional story.

@agathon Thanks, I will check it out!