Contest Questions

Posted by: @wulfmoon

Posted by: @babooher

Posted by: @wulfmoon

You cannot go wrong if you master it, and virtually every aspiring writer I've edited messes it up. Big time

What are the common traps or mistakes you see aspiring writers make with 3rd person limited, past tense?

They cheat.

It's very hard to stay inside the head of your protagonist. It means you can only put on the page what the heroine thinks, sees, feels, reads, tastes, smells, touches, KNOWS. So the aspiring writer hops off their heroine's shoulder when the going gets rough and jumps over to someone else's that has the information the story needs. 

They'll also show things happening that the hero could never see. Or they'll jump from head to head (head hopping) after being exclusively in 3P limited. Head hopping is a huge problem. Not only is it disorienting, it dilutes the power of the narrative, because you are dividing the experience between other characters.

I need to do a Super Secret on this. Most of the Secrets I've written here were born from editing workshop members' stories, or clients' stories. There are mistakes you see over and over again--most aspiring writers make the exact same ones. Yes, I did, too. Weed those out, and you're well on the way to crafting a professional story.

Lol. Yes I got caught on the cheating. I have been trying to find some good resources on what you CAN and CAN'T do with 3rd person limited. It has been a painful experience. However when I discovered Harry Potter was 3rd person limited I started rereading sections to pick up on how JK Rowling did it. She does have a few chapters where she changes the person talking, but generally sticks with that person for the chapter.

I actually tried to find a section on Super Secrets about this.

I just ask that anyone reviewing my work kicks me if they see it. I need tough love.

@craydimensional

Yeah, I haven’t written it yet. It’s on my list for the Super Secrets books. I keep seeing the issue, so I know it will help if I cover it. ?

A question about plagiarism.

I've looked back through this feed and there is a similar question in regards to Jon Snow apparel. I couldn't quite tell if it covered mine.

One of my flash fiction stories has a girl make reference to a real book (Charlotte's Web) and a real TV series. No characters or anything else from these are mentioned, but the names of the book/show are.

Does that fail the plagiarism test? Would I need to delete it before sending it off to WotF? (What about other markets?)

Posted by: @scott_m_sands

A question about plagiarism.

I've looked back through this feed and there is a similar question in regards to Jon Snow apparel. I couldn't quite tell if it covered mine.

One of my flash fiction stories has a girl make reference to a real book (Charlotte's Web) and a real TV series. No characters or anything else from these are mentioned, but the names of the book/show are.

Does that fail the plagiarism test? Would I need to delete it before sending it off to WotF? (What about other markets?)

This isn't plagiarism, Scott. Passing off material from these intellectual properties as your own would be. Quoting song lyrics not in public domain will get you in trouble also. I will say if WotF publishes your story, they will go through it with a fine toothed comb for any copyright, trademark, and IP issues. But Kary and Dave won't do this in the judging. You should be good. 

@wulfmoon

Thanks, oh mighty Wulf!

That's great news (good clarification about not claiming them as mine, too).

The piece I was referring to is a fun little flash I did in response to the WotF Super Secrets prompt 'Which Witch'. I don't normally go for comedy, but this one was really fun to write!

There was a story in the most recent volume that mentioned the make and model of a car (Honda Civic, I think) and the name of a famous actress (Megan Fox), and that was a comedy.

Posted by: @alexh

There was a story in the most recent volume that mentioned the make and model of a car (Honda Civic, I think) and the name of a famous actress (Megan Fox), and that was a comedy.

Exactly. And yet the WotF copy editor had me change Make A Wish and also My Little Pony in “Super-Duper Moongirl...” You’ll find in publishing, each copy editor has their own parameters they go by, and you do your best to go with the flow at each publishing house. But it won’t hurt your chances for a great story being chosen. I’d still be very careful about quoting song lyrics. 

@wulfmoon Oh yes, now I remember you mentioning that about My Little Pony. I liked your alternative though - it fit Dixie's personality, and probably even made a great story even that tiny little bit stronger for me. I like those kinds of references that are unique to a story but obvious enough to picture.

And song lyrics are often a definite no unless they're out of copyright or you can get a licence. I tried for around 18 months to get a licence for two lines I wanted to use - but the licencing company were so slow I gave up. A funny thing happened related to that - I bumped into the songwriter in some cinema toilets after we'd just been to the same screening of Bohemian Rhapsody, pretty much the same week I'd been dealing with the licencing company! I didn't think to ask him about the lyrics, though I imagine it would've been out of his hands too.

I’ve been reading through the Forum (lots of great content here!) and I keep coming across comments about entrants taking their high ranking stories and selling them to other markets. At the same time, I also see in the contest rules that you can’t have more than 3 professionally published (8c/word or 5K hits) short stories and still enter. 

Is there some loophole I’m missing here or are folks intentionally writing themselves out of the contest?

Posted by: @lost_bard

I’ve been reading through the Forum (lots of great content here!) and I keep coming across comments about entrants taking their high ranking stories and selling them to other markets. At the same time, I also see in the contest rules that you can’t have more than 3 professionally published (8c/word or 5K hits) short stories and still enter. 

Is there some loophole I’m missing here or are folks intentionally writing themselves out of the contest?

In my case, I treat it as kind of a race. Will I win before I pro out, or will I pro out before I win? That's because my end goal as a writer isn't to win this contest. It's to develop my skills enough that I can write novels to support my family--or at least, help to support my family. Don't get me wrong, winning would be amazing, but it's only one potential route toward my end goal. If I focused solely on the contest as opposed to trying for other venues as well, odds are good I'd still be unpublished after six years of trying to win. That honestly might have left me frustrated enough to stop writing, and lord knows I don't want to do that.

Also, while I know of other people who have sold their higher-ranking stories in the contest, I've actually had more success with a) revising stories that didn't do well in the contest and sending them elsewhere, and b) targeting markets with themed anthologies.

In the end, it really all depends on what a writer's individual goals are and how they want to pursue those goals. For some people, focusing on the contest is more important, and that's perfectly fair. I just have a broader focus, personally.

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

In my case, I treat it as kind of a race. Will I win before I pro out, or will I pro out before I win? That's because my end goal as a writer isn't to win this contest. It's to develop my skills enough that I can write novels to support my family--or at least, help to support my family. Don't get me wrong, winning would be amazing, but it's only one potential route toward my end goal. If I focused solely on the contest as opposed to trying for other venues as well, odds are good I'd still be unpublished after six years of trying to win. That honestly might have left me frustrated enough to stop writing, and lord knows I don't want to do that.

Also, while I know of other people who have sold their higher-ranking stories in the contest, I've actually had more success with a) revising stories that didn't do well in the contest and sending them elsewhere, and b) targeting markets with themed anthologies.

In the end, it really all depends on what a writer's individual goals are and how they want to pursue those goals. For some people, focusing on the contest is more important, and that's perfectly fair. I just have a broader focus, personally.

@disgruntledpeony, Thanks! That makes sense. I kind of like the idea of using WotF as a launchpad for a writing career, regardless of whether you win or not. It's a great way to practice, improve, and network with other writers in the nascent stages of their careers while getting advice and tips from those who have already made it, like @wulfmoon.

The fact that you can enter quarterly with the potential of getting professional feedback on your work is pretty big. I've been submitting a novel to agents for a year and barely gotten more than a 'thanks but no thanks' email in reply. After reading only half of Wulf's Super Secret's I've now realized that my novel is fundamentally flawed.

*sigh*

I am definitely staying with the contest for a while to improve my skills, but you have a good point that winning the contest isn't necessarily the end-all-be-all. Like you, my goal is to make enough money with writing to pay the bills and I feel like full-lenght novels is where that happens. To get there, however, I've realized that I need to learn the foundations of writing which go way beyond the proper English and basic writing I learned growing up and this contest is the place to learn.

Who knew that you needed three try/fail cycles, a character/setting/problem, a hook, seven points in your plot and an opening that starts at the crux of the problem (along with a million other critical details that make good stories)? Not this guy. At least, not until I got here. 

Thanks for the insight. It gives me a lot to think about as I keep writing, improving (hopefully), and pushing toward that goal of paying the bills to put food on the table. 

@lost_bard  As Dixie says: "One step at a time, my physical therapist used to say, and look where that's gotten me so far!"

@lost_bard

Kind of similar to Disgruntled Peony for me. I'd obviously love to win the contest. But I'd also love to sell enough stories to pro out. Either way, the contest is a perfect training ground to help our careers. I've been listening to the WotF podcasts, and current judges for the WotF contest actually 'pro'd out' too when they were starting (Kevin J Anderson, for one). They are hugely successful now.

As for submitting to other markets, if you're like me and you're writing at least two stories a quarter: a) you currently have a nice backlog   b) you have at least one fresh story PLUS your WotF submission each quarter- why not send those little krakens out and get your name known! Plenty of the stories that don't win WotF are being published by other pro markets.

btw, if you're doing the KYD flash stories, they're less than 1000w. I could be mistaken, but I believe you can sell as many of these to pro markets as you want without it counting against you for WotF (but please check that first!)

Posted by: @scott_m_sands

As for submitting to other markets, if you're like me and you're writing at least two stories a quarter: a) you currently have a nice backlog   b) you have at least one fresh story PLUS your WotF submission each quarter- why not send those little krakens out and get your name known! Plenty of the stories that don't win WotF are being published by other pro markets.

btw, if you're doing the KYD flash stories, they're less than 1000w. I could be mistaken, but I believe you can sell as many of these to pro markets as you want without it counting against you for WotF (but please check that first!)

I’m not to the point of two stories a quarter, but I can see the appeal of sending extras (or those that place highly without winning) to other markets. For me, WotF started as away to acquire some writing credits in support of novel publication (I had no clue how stiff the competition here was) so publication in other markets would serve the same purpose. However, WotF quickly turned into a personal journey of writing discovery as I realized how much I didn’t know and dove into the wide weird wonderful world of this forum. So I’m going to refrain from tempting the fate of other markets until I’ve honed my craft a bit.

As a newbie to this (Q2 of this year was my first short story ever), I’m cautiously curious to see how my first entry did as I polish my second. 

@lost_bard

I've also written an (as yet unpublished) manuscript. I read novels more than short stories. But I love how much practicing with short stories has improved my writing craft.

Just curious. For WoTF can you specify a trademarked name such as Nike, Magic-8, Coach Bag, … or should we avoid those.

Posted by: @craydimensional

Just curious. For WoTF can you specify a trademarked name such as Nike, Magic-8, Coach Bag, … or should we avoid those.

They won’t cause Dave to reject your story. But if you get accepted, their copy editor will go through them with a fine-toothed comb. They don’t take risks by publishing registered trademarks in their volumes.

Just watching the live stream and had a question. Seems that all the story writers also have artwork connected with their story. Do most writing contest submissions have illustration as a part of their submission?

@jdw4lrhwriters Illustrators of the Future is a separate contest - the winners of which are then assigned a story from their quarter to illustrate (I believe that the 3rd place illustrator winner gets to draw for the 3rd place writer winner, and so on) for the anthology. Writers/Illustrators of the Future is, as far as I know, unique on this point - getting commissioned art for your story is pretty remarkable.

Posted by: @rschibler

@jdw4lrhwriters Illustrators of the Future is a separate contest - the winners of which are then assigned a story from their quarter to illustrate (I believe that the 3rd place illustrator winner gets to draw for the 3rd place writer winner, and so on) for the anthology. Writers/Illustrators of the Future is, as far as I know, unique on this point - getting commissioned art for your story is pretty remarkable.

Oh, I see. Yes, that is cool. Thanks for the answer.

@rschibler 
Definitely cool. Having a professional/aspiring-artist-who-creates-at-a-professional-level artist make an image of my work?
Sounds great to me.   

Hello everyone 😀 Q1 2021 is coming along nicely. I've tried to find the answer to my question, but there is a lot to shift through. 

Anywhos here are my questions:

1) It says if you win a place in the the quarter that you enter that you can no longer enter the contest. So say I win 3rd place in Q2 2021. Obviously I wouldn't enter for the next of the competition time; however, what about Q2 in 2022? Would I still be able to try again to win the first place prize? (Side note: I don't plan on winning, as this is my first quarter entry lol, but I would like to have my ducks in a row.) 

2) It says no publications in the professional market. I understand that for the stories that are being submitted, but what about the author?

@kpadgett Katlynn, once you win, you won. The Contest is an amateur discovery contest. When you win, you are disqualified from entering again. This makes room for other amateurs to have their chance at being discovered.

As for professional sales, you can have some and still enter. Go back and read the rules again. ?

Best,

Wulf Moon

Forum Moderator

@wulfmoon Thanks! I just wanted to make sure I understood everything 

@wulfmoon so is 3rd place or 2nd for that matter , as far as disqualification is concerned, considered winning?

Posted by: @pdblake

@wulfmoon so is 3rd place or 2nd for that matter , as far as disqualification is concerned, considered winning?

---

 

Of course! As far as anything is concerned! You place first, second, or third in a quarter, you won! So saith the official published announcement, and the last pages of every anthology. You get flown to Hollywood for the workshop and gala and have over $30,000 spent on you! You get published in a #1 bestselling anthology! You get a beautiful trophy. And then you make room for someone else to have their chance.

Just so I know. I'll go pack a bag in case. 

I've been searching this forum (and Googling) for an answer to this, and I'm sorry if this has been answered elsewhere. 

What, if any, are the rules around contest eligibility if you're self-published?

Does self-publishing a novel on all the usual platforms (Amazon, Kobo, B&N, etc) count as being proed-out? If you publish short stories to all the usual platforms, do the same rules apply? I.e. if a single short story is bought/downloaded 5000 times (I know, unfathomable, there is a VERY limited market for short fiction in self-publishing), and you make over 0.08c a word on that short story from all the different payouts across all the platforms, does that count as one of your three alloted professionally published short stories? 

Posted by: @lizardosity

I've been searching this forum (and Googling) for an answer to this, and I'm sorry if this has been answered elsewhere. 

What, if any, are the rules around contest eligibility if you're self-published?

Does self-publishing a novel on all the usual platforms (Amazon, Kobo, B&N, etc) count as being proed-out? If you publish short stories to all the usual platforms, do the same rules apply? I.e. if a single short story is bought/downloaded 5000 times (I know, unfathomable, there is a VERY limited market for short fiction in self-publishing), and you make over 0.08c a word on that short story from all the different payouts across all the platforms, does that count as one of your three alloted professionally published short stories? 

My guess would be:

• Multiple non-pro short story sales for a single story don't magically stack together to create a "pro" sale (they don't for SFWA, for example--a part of a pro market sale, after all, is the acceptance standard of the market you're publishing in), but
• Sufficiently successful self-publishing counts as professional publication, as self-publication is a major part of the publishing world today.

However, I would recommend that you reach out to Joni to clarify these points (or wait for an answer from @wulfmoon, who is a true-blood wizard of Knowing Things where the Contest is concerned), as she can answer definitively, which I can't.

@lizardosity

Hi, Liz. Welcome to the Forum!

Dr. Jest already made good points; I’ll just add to them. Earnings are per story, not per platform. You need two things for that story to be counted as a pro sale in the case of an indie published story: 5,000 sales, and total payments equaling $0.08 per word on that story. Here’s the rules: “Professional publication is deemed to be payment of at least eight cents per word, and at least 5,000 copies, or 5,000 hits.”

As you yourself noted, it’s unlikely indie sales of a short story will hit 5,000. Not impossible, but unlikely. And you also have the earnings requirement So unless you published a story with results like “Wool”, you’re good to go. And remember, it’s the *fourth* at this level that disqualifies you. You can’t have *over* three, meaning the fourth that hits their markers disqualifies you.

As for novels, indie or otherwise, you no longer can enter the contest when one hits their markers. Here’s the rule: “The Contest is open only to those who have not professionally published a novel or short novel, or more than one novelette, or more than three short stories, in any medium.”

More questions on a particular sale or indie published story or novel? Joni Labaqui will be happy to help you out if you email her with the specifics.

I do hope you’ll post to the topic: New Users Introduce Yourselves if you haven’t already. 

Best of success!