Discussion: Q2 Volume 37

Believe me, I look forward to it!

Thanks, Dragon & Disgruntled! (Got to love our names.) I know he won and others have, too. I'm just edgy and seeing that yesterday made me realize I don't know what I don't know. I do know I'm doing something right to get the HMs. I'd hoped the Q2 was good enough to at least receive a SHM if not more, but now... I'm thinking I should have been more brutal with my cuts. I cut my Q3 story by half and I could have done more, so I doubt it will go the distance. I never did huge cuts to the Q2 story because I felt like I needed what I had. Seeing what I did with the Q3, I'm doubting and then there's the POV issue. So yeah. . . Beats head against the wall. The computer emoji seemed a little violent. LOL I can always rewrite it, but I'd kinda hoped to keep writing a new story for each quarter. Keeping up with Wolf's suggestions and all that. Well, we'll see. Right now, the well feels dry. The Q3 story took the mickie out of me. Sigh.

I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

I tend to worry about my entries not being "perfect" too. I find that if I don't look at them or think about them I have a lot more confidence, and really whether I look at them or not it won't make a difference in their chances, so I may as well keep my hope than feel depressed about it. But the best way to forget about it is to put your energy into the present/future, rather than keeping it in the past. And if you need ideas, doing a little research into some subject or idea you find interesting never hurts

Excellent point, Eagerink. I love my research, so I should go for that. 😀

My Q1 winner is first person. About half my finalist pieces were. Well done first person is magnificent. As anyone who names himself FitzChivalry well knows!

Yes definitely!

I have a special place in my heart for first-person (and for Robin Hobb novels). No one should be scared off of first-person. Very immersive, great writing can come from that POV.

I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "

I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "

And yet, mine won. And it would have been diminished in third person. Do what you feel is right for the story you are telling. But it’s good to be aware about how the judges feel about first person.

Something to remember: A powerful story can push past all biases.

All my entries have been in 1st person!

I am going to submit a story that is second person, future tense. I am going to use my college education for evil. Anyone who reads it will die from excessive groaning and eye-rolling. Pompous writing as a weapon of war. I am a monster. I am death. I am the destroyer of worlds.

One of my two current subs (not saying which quarter) is written in second person present tense. >_> It felt necessary for the story to have the proper impact. Really, in the end, our goal is to tell the most interesting version of our story we can, and perspective/viewpoint are key elements of that.

I love first and would write every short story that way, but lately I've been looking at the story and asking myself it it can be 3rd. If the answer is yes, then I switch it.

My novels are in 3rd. As much as I love writing in 1st, I dislike novels in 1st (reading or writing).

I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "

And yet, mine won. And it would have been diminished in third person. Do what you feel is right for the story you are telling. But it’s good to be aware about how the judges feel about first person.

Something to remember: A powerful story can push past all biases.

I figured Wulf would be along and point this out. Give his story "Moongirl" a read. https://future-sf.com/fiction/super-duper-moongirl-and-the-amazing-moon-dawdler/ He is, of course, correct. First person POV was absolutely essential for that tale to work. Yeah, some judges don't prefer it. But, ultimately, you can break lots of rules if it supports a good story.

Anyway. It's clearly not a rule. A lot of YA is written in 1POV. In fact, it seems to be the preference in that world.

I hadn't heard anything about the judges disliking first person POV, could you tell me where that is? I imagine it is mostly because it is easier to make mistakes in it, such as switching viewpoints, but that is just a guess.

Check out Moon's super secrets #25: don’t write a story in 1st person for wotf.

Moon wrote, "Scott Card, Tim Powers, AND David Farland railed against first person in any tense for an HOUR "

A quick analysis of any recent volume of WOTF will show that a good half the stories are in 1st. So why the warning from the judges? I don't know, but it's possible that they get more bad first person stories than third person. That is, if 80% of entries to the contest are in first (I have no idea if this is true, I would doubt it's that extreme) but only half the winners are in first, that would suggest a lot of really bad first person stories along with some great ones.

It's also possible that this is advice they give all new writers. It's important when you're learning to understand the rules and why they exist. However, you won't be a real writer until you know when those rules must be broken. For instance, I consider "don't use first person present tense" to be a rule that I follow. But Moon's Super-Duper Moongirl story needed to be in first present! And I have written a story that had to be in first present as well. (It's here if you want to read it for free: http://www.intergalacticmedicineshow.com/cgi-bin/mag.cgi?do=issue&vol=i63&article=_001).

Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) wrote The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn in First Person. This allows the reader to experience the story through Huck's eyes and identify closely with the narrator. The story is told completely from Huck's perspective, and the MC refers to himself as "I" throughout the novel.

Huckleberry is thirteen. The author (Twain) is free to teach us lessons AS Huck learns them. The action is through his eyes, but the reader interprets the action through his/her eyes. This gives the reader a unique perspective.

It's a classic.

Nevertheless, ninety percent of books which you browse through at Barnes and Noble are third person.

Best,

Retro

I agree with all that’s been said, that is the story should be told the best way it can. With me, about half of my stories are first person, maybe a little less. I avoid present tense though. (Seriously, how can they tell a story when they’re getting wacked by a gorilla? But that’s just me
Just to add a bit, looking through OSC’s book Character and Viewpoint, he does not, not once, disparage first person. (Although his views may have evolved over time.) What he does say is that for beginners, third person is best, and that many people, as KD said, use first person when they don’t know how. This is because first person seems to be the natural way to tell a story. What new writers don’t know however, is that thoughts can still be portrayed through third person, and that the perpetual “I” in first can be annoying.

But he does not say that nothing should be written in first person. In fact, I believe he won a nebula for “An Eye for an Eye”, a novella written in (basically) first person. (The one viewpoint that he sort of admits to not liking is third person omniscient, as it limits reader sympathy; yet there are exceptions to this as well. Gone With The Wind comes to mind.)

There are stories in which the full value is not realized without the first person, for example The Murder of Roger Akroyd, or any story or novel by Gene Wolfe.

Then there are those where the essential voice would be lost, Moongirl, for example, or Flowers for Algernon. I would be very disturbed (read: enraged) if someone were to take upon themselves to rewrite Anne Frank’s Diary in third person; it would remove the whole voice and the whole point.

In all this I don’t think Orson Scott Card, or Tim Powers, or David Farland disagree, even if they claim to. What they are saying is that there are many who write first person because they think it’s superior and thus butcher it; and not only that, but even those who do not butcher it could have done better with third. Examples of this may be David Copperfield, or Jane Eyre. Maybe Percy Jackson, maybe.

But that’s just their opinion, I like Jane Eyre just the way it is
This is just my opinion, but reading OSC, I think what he really means is that there is something of an up down up curve. That is: third person is the easiest way to write. When you get better it is tempting to write in first person as it makes it easier to portray the MC’s thoughts, thus bringing him/her closer to the reader. What one should strive for, however, is writing in third person anyway, taking the hard route, and the result is all the better for it.

That's my two cents. Or three. Or four.

I rewrote my story for the third quarter- from first person to third. And I must say, it allowed me to write a better story. I have so many more options this way as an omnisent observer of what’s happening.

Though, if my story was badass enough, first person could still win.

I am dying for the results of this quarter.
Seems like it’s taking much longer than usual?
Is that correct?

Reuben, I agree with all that you have said. Except the assumption of Scott Card's present standing on writing in first person. He was absolutely against it at the Writers of the Future workshop--so were the other instructors, who are your judges--and OSC said in no uncertain terms the only true way to tell a story is in third person, past tense. Always. Yes, I did have my hand up through most of that lecture. No, he did not call on me.

In the end, every judge has their preferences, secret and not-so-secret biases, and opinions. It's good to be aware of them. Doesn't mean they turn aside good stories just because they have their preferences. They have said as much, and the published stories prove it.
All the best,

Wulf Moon

I rewrote my story for the third quarter- from first person to third. And I must say, it allowed me to write a better story. I have so many more options this way as an omnisent observer of what’s happening.

Though, if my story was badass enough, first person could still win.

I am dying for the results of this quarter.
Seems like it’s taking much longer than usual?
Is that correct?

I think (but am not 100% positive) that it might come out on Thursday

Results are always on a Thursday. Even on a Wednesday.

Results are always on a Thursday. Even on a Wednesday.

And Tuesdays? The results of Q1 were announced on Tuesday, April 21st

Every day is Thursday.

Every day is Thursday.

Oh, I get it! You mean the results will come out anytime

Someone did an analysis. I forget when it happens most often but recall that there isn't a strong correlation with any day of the week.

And yet, Thursday cometh.

Someone did an analysis. I forget when it happens most often but recall that there isn't a strong correlation with any day of the week.

Lets just reiterate what RSchibler and HermioneLee said:

Every day is Thursday.

Oh, I get it! You mean the results will come out anytime

Enjoy your Thursdays!!

This got me curious, so if you are too, here are my notification dates for the last four years:

SUN:
MON: | | | |
TUE: | |
WED: | | |
THU: | | | | |
FRI: |
SAT: |

Maybe not a majority, but definitely a solid bet.

And yet, Thursday cometh.

Hip, Hip... Thursday!

Mine is a fairly even spread, so far: just corrected this, and it's two Mondays and Fridays, plus one each of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday. No Sundays in my list either.

I've been submitting since the days of paper subs, so I have lots of data to draw from

Here's my weekday stats:

Monday = 8
Tuesday = 8
Wednesday = 10
Thursday = 7
Friday = 4
Saturday = 2
Sunday = 0

Of my nine Q2 submissions, 5 have received responses in July (the rest were May and June). Most of them were early in the month and a few were at the end with the latest being July 25th (an HM).

Of course, this info also spans different judges, the addition of a first reader, different results, and different methods of response (results used to come more in waves, rather than all at once). V36Q3 was the first time I ever received results on the weekend, although others have said they did prior to that, and as I was reviewing my info, I noticed that I have never received contest results twice on the same date. It's fun to look at the numbers, but if I've learned one thing, it's that Thursdays are unpredictable!

The acronym for Every Day Is Thursday is EDIT.

Maybe it's a higher truth, telling us to stop twitching and get back to work 😉

Best of luck to all. Results should be soon, I think.

Working on my Q4 as we wait in twitchery.

The acronym for Every Day Is Thursday is EDIT.

Maybe it's a higher truth, telling us to stop twitching and get back to work 😉

Best of luck to all. Results should be soon, I think.

Love it!