Discussion Q4 Volume 38

@lost_bard Lol. I tend to not include enough world building. Maybe we can swap

Posted by: @ccrawford

@lost_bard I do that ALL the time... it's how my brain works through worldbuilding details.  And then I have to go promptly slash it all back out.  Lol.  I'm getting better about not including it all in my first drafts, either, but sometimes I need to, to get everything straight in my brain, so I think that's okay if you do! ... As long as you then remember to go rewrite the opening to start that dang quest right away! 😉 

Sometimes you really do need that brain dump first. 

I save my deleted parts in a "Cut Bits" file in case I want to reference them (or sprinkle them in sparingly) later.  Makes it easier to ruthlessly slash them. Lol. 

I like the idea of having a ‘cut bits’ file. I tend to just leave the cut bits at the end of my story (sometimes including multiple false start drafts, so it can get lengthy) then delete them off of my final draft. Of course, I do keep multiple copies of everything since I’ve had a few data loss issues in the past, so it’s always there, somewhere, if I really need to dig up the cut bits. Perhaps I’ll organize them into a proper file. 

@disgruntledpeony It is an interesting start, but it was when the god said the equivalent of ‘this is your quest’ on page seven that I stopped and swore silently to myself (couldn’t swear out loud, the kid was in the room). I need that particular interaction about five pages earlier. 

Okay, so here's a technique question for y'all. I'm not entirely sure what to call this because it doesn't exactly fit the proper definition of an 'unreliable narrator', but I'm contemplating writing this new one with narrated asides as though someone is telling the story (like at a campfire). I intend to have that narrator come in as a character toward the end, but I'm not sure about telling it in two voices. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, changed enough so it's not actually my story, but has the same concept.

----

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged, and thoroughly pissed off.

#

Wait, no, we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. Completely unfitting for the one who saved every one of you blaggards. Let's back it up to the day before. Sunrise, aboard the Pirate Ship Revenge.

#

Lucy eyed the cutlass in her face with distain. Nothing that rusty would be allowed aboard once this was her ship.

----

Is this something I can/should do, or should I just go with a traditional voice?

Posted by: @lost_bard

Started an interesting new story and wrote a fascinating intro with some great characters. Sat back to admire my opening pages and realized that I wrote seven pages of world building before my hero actually started his quest. Drat, I drove to the story. It was an interesting drive, but failed to start my freaking hero’s quest. *sigh* 

But here's the good news. You have enough experience and education to be able to discern what you did. Now you can fix it. That's another level up! Kudos!

Posted by: @lost_bard

Okay, so here's a technique question for y'all. I'm not entirely sure what to call this because it doesn't exactly fit the proper definition of an 'unreliable narrator', but I'm contemplating writing this new one with narrated asides as though someone is telling the story (like at a campfire). I intend to have that narrator come in as a character toward the end, but I'm not sure about telling it in two voices. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, changed enough so it's not actually my story, but has the same concept.

----

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged, and thoroughly pissed off.

#

Wait, no, we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. Completely unfitting for the one who saved every one of you blaggards. Let's back it up to the day before. Sunrise, aboard the Pirate Ship Revenge.

#

Lucy eyed the cutlass in her face with distain. Nothing that rusty would be allowed aboard once this was her ship.

----

Is this something I can/should do, or should I just go with a traditional voice?

That could definitely be fun. As long as you keep things consistent (cutting back and forth between the narrative and the asides with every hashtag as opposed to using the hashtags for scene changes with no commentary in between), it could give you a really interesting flow for the story.

Posted by: @lost_bard

Okay, so here's a technique question for y'all. I'm not entirely sure what to call this because it doesn't exactly fit the proper definition of an 'unreliable narrator', but I'm contemplating writing this new one with narrated asides as though someone is telling the story (like at a campfire). I intend to have that narrator come in as a character toward the end, but I'm not sure about telling it in two voices. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, changed enough so it's not actually my story, but has the same concept.

----

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged, and thoroughly pissed off.

#

Wait, no, we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. Completely unfitting for the one who saved every one of you blaggards. Let's back it up to the day before. Sunrise, aboard the Pirate Ship Revenge.

#

Lucy eyed the cutlass in her face with distain. Nothing that rusty would be allowed aboard once this was her ship.

----

Is this something I can/should do, or should I just go with a traditional voice?

The first and the third examples look pretty standard to me, like a narrator that will never take part in the events of the story. I don't know it would work if he came in as a character in these two examples. The second one feels more appropriate for what you're looking for, and that happens mostly because of the fairy tale-like voice. The three of them read very distant from the reader though (if that makes any sense). What I'd do would be to try and make it feel like the narrator was actually there from the get-go. Think about The Great Gatsby, where the story of the title character is told by another character...or even the protagonists from Edgar Allan Poe, who are writing the events in hindsight.

Good luck!

PS: nice example with Xena!

Posted by: @ccrawford

Posted by: @ccrawford

@lost_bard I do that ALL the time... it's how my brain works through worldbuilding details.  And then I have to go promptly slash it all back out.  Lol.  I'm getting better about not including it all in my first drafts, either, but sometimes I need to, to get everything straight in my brain, so I think that's okay if you do! ... As long as you then remember to go rewrite the opening to start that dang quest right away! ? 

Sometimes you really do need that brain dump first. 

I save my deleted parts in a "Cut Bits" file in case I want to reference them (or sprinkle them in sparingly) later.  Makes it easier to ruthlessly slash them. Lol. 

I like the idea of having a ‘cut bits’ file. I tend to just leave the cut bits at the end of my story (sometimes including multiple false start drafts, so it can get lengthy) then delete them off of my final draft. Of course, I do keep multiple copies of everything since I’ve had a few data loss issues in the past, so it’s always there, somewhere, if I really need to dig up the cut bits. Perhaps I’ll organize them into a proper file. 

I keep a similar stash of 'cut bits'. Could be an opening, could be a section I decide I no longer need, could be just my x pages of thinking about what the world looks like, etc.
I also save as a new file if a considerable edit is done to the story. So I have FOLDERS for each story that have all many of files in them relating to that story. A little messy? Perhaps. But it seems to work for me.

@lost_bard 

I like this idea, David!

I'm not sure if you mean to write the story (not the exact content in your example) and separate it by using a single # each time. Personally, that didn't work for me. Could you italicize the narrator? (I'm not saying this is how you should do it btw, just raising the question for if there's another way). Like:

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged and thoroughly pissed off.
(insert tab) Wait, no. we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. etc ...

Good luck with it, though! Cool idea.

@disgruntledpeony and @scott_m_sands, I agree about the hashtags. I wasn't sure about how to use them to separate the narrator while still needing scene breaks. I think the italics work better.

@alexvss, I need to go dig up The Great Gadsby. I don't remember if that was written in two voices or a third-person omniscient from the story-teller's perspective. Research is a good thing.

And yes, I think Xena would have made an excellent Dread Pirate Roberts.

@scott_m_sands I keep multiple versions of stories and have folders, too. 

Posted by: @lost_bard

Okay, so here's a technique question for y'all. I'm not entirely sure what to call this because it doesn't exactly fit the proper definition of an 'unreliable narrator', but I'm contemplating writing this new one with narrated asides as though someone is telling the story (like at a campfire). I intend to have that narrator come in as a character toward the end, but I'm not sure about telling it in two voices. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, changed enough so it's not actually my story, but has the same concept.

----

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged, and thoroughly pissed off.

#

Wait, no, we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. Completely unfitting for the one who saved every one of you blaggards. Let's back it up to the day before. Sunrise, aboard the Pirate Ship Revenge.

#

Lucy eyed the cutlass in her face with distain. Nothing that rusty would be allowed aboard once this was her ship.

----

Is this something I can/should do, or should I just go with a traditional voice?

This sounds a bit like something known as a "Frame Story." One thing I learned about frame stories, and it was AJ (Algis Budrys) that taught me this, is that when you open a story with a frame, when you come back to the frame at the end with your narrator, something must change within the frame. It's a way of saying everything was not what it might have seemed in this tale. AJ's example was indeed a story with an unreliable narrator. Wiki's example of the movie Amadeus is a perfect example of this technique.

Here's Wiki on it:

Casting doubt on the narrator

A common reason to frame a single story is to draw attention to the narrator's unreliability. By explicitly making the narrator a character within the frame story, the writer distances him or herself from the narrator. The writer may characterize the narrator to cast doubt on the narrator's truthfulness, as when in P. G. Wodehouse's stories of Mr Mulliner, Mulliner is made a fly fisherman, a person who is expected to tell tales of unbelievably large fish.^{[citation needed]} The movie Amadeus is framed as a story an old Antonio Salieri tells to a young priest, because the movie is based more on stories Salieri told about Mozart than on historical fact.^[16]

Posted by: @wulfmoon

Posted by: @lost_bard

Okay, so here's a technique question for y'all. I'm not entirely sure what to call this because it doesn't exactly fit the proper definition of an 'unreliable narrator', but I'm contemplating writing this new one with narrated asides as though someone is telling the story (like at a campfire). I intend to have that narrator come in as a character toward the end, but I'm not sure about telling it in two voices. Here's an example of what I'm talking about, changed enough so it's not actually my story, but has the same concept.

----

Lucy woke upside down, bound, gagged, and thoroughly pissed off.

#

Wait, no, we can't start the tale of Lucy Lawless with her waking up. Completely unfitting for the one who saved every one of you blaggards. Let's back it up to the day before. Sunrise, aboard the Pirate Ship Revenge.

#

Lucy eyed the cutlass in her face with distain. Nothing that rusty would be allowed aboard once this was her ship.

----

Is this something I can/should do, or should I just go with a traditional voice?

This sounds a bit like something known as a "Frame Story." One thing I learned about frame stories, and it was AJ (Algis Budrys) that taught me this, is that when you open a story with a frame, when you come back to the frame at the end with your narrator, something must change within the frame. It's a way of saying everything was not what it might have seemed in this tale. AJ's example was indeed a story with an unreliable narrator. Wiki's example of the movie Amadeus is a perfect example of this technique.

Here's Wiki on it:

Casting doubt on the narrator

A common reason to frame a single story is to draw attention to the narrator's unreliability. By explicitly making the narrator a character within the frame story, the writer distances him or herself from the narrator. The writer may characterize the narrator to cast doubt on the narrator's truthfulness, as when in P. G. Wodehouse's stories of Mr Mulliner, Mulliner is made a fly fisherman, a person who is expected to tell tales of unbelievably large fish.^{[citation needed]} The movie Amadeus is framed as a story an old Antonio Salieri tells to a young priest, because the movie is based more on stories Salieri told about Mozart than on historical fact.^[16]

Thanks Wulf! Having a name for it will help frame my research.

@ccrawford 

I do the same thing! I make a page on scrivener in my WIP and call it "Lost Lines". It's where I stick all the bits I cut. Then, I can sprinkle them into the story later if wanted or needed, or just visit them from time to time to admire their beauty or lament their loss. LOL 😉 

@lost_bard 

Stephen King's Fantasy novel, The Eyes of the Dragon, has something akin to what you're describing. 

Here's how it's described on Wiki:
The Eyes of the Dragon ... is told from the perspective of an unnamed storyteller/narrator, who speaks casually and frankly to the reader, frequently adding his own commentary on characters' motivations and the like.

--and fwiw, this is one of my favorite King novels! ♥

Good luck.

~A.

I am fascinated by this concept. I've played around with unreliable narrator short form fiction only twice, I think, and now that I think back, they loosely fit the concept of a frame story--I think that while you could probably write unreliable narrator without it being in the form of a past-tense retelling of a story from the narrator's perspective looking back, at the same time, it's probably the most natural way to try out the form.

But in the consideration of frame stories, one that leaps to mind for me is the KingKiller trilogy by Patrick Rothfuss. What's interesting in that one is that Kvothe is the person telling his story, and in his story, he is legendary at most things--and in the world outside his telling, he is known to be legendary, which gives some weight to the telling. However, while it's compelling, it's also very difficult to tell if his recollection of his own story is accurate or exaggerated, and to exactly what extent--more than one fantasy novel has already dealt with the idea of stories outgrowing their origin, after all, and there are some minor apparent discrepancies between the present real world and the recalled events which could be down to an unreliable narrator, or could be the product of events not yet known that could mean that the narrative is entirely truthful.

I could talk more about my own questions about just this series, but I'll not dig into it, as I can't think of a way right now to structure those questions or comments in such a way as to not spoil the books. However, I am looking forward to the eventual third book settling those questions--and I think those broad unknowns, which go far beyond just "how will the story end", do provide some interesting insight into how you could finish books in a series in such a way as to keep readers' minds intrigued even when the time between books in the series begins to stretch out. 

@doctorjest 

Name of the Wind is fantastic. Such rich detail that easily pulls you into the world. I read it a while ago and I'm trying to remember: while Kvothe is the one telling the story, he doesn't add his own 'direct' commentary to the story, does he? The story events are just written, retold from his perspective. (As I said, I read it a few years ago, so can't quite remember).

I haven't read Wise Man's Fear yet, though I have it. I haven't been able to work myself up to the 1000 pages. I did read some reviews that said many questions from book 1 weren't answered. What did you think of it, Doc Jest?  

Posted by: @scott_m_sands

@doctorjest 

Name of the Wind is fantastic. Such rich detail that easily pulls you into the world. I read it a while ago and I'm trying to remember: while Kvothe is the one telling the story, he doesn't add his own 'direct' commentary to the story, does he? The story events are just written, retold from his perspective. (As I said, I read it a few years ago, so can't quite remember).

I haven't read Wise Man's Fear yet, though I have it. I haven't been able to work myself up to the 1000 pages. I did read some reviews that said many questions from book 1 weren't answered. What did you think of it, Doc Jest?  

I think that's accurate, though there may be some snippets of commentary when you shift from the retelling to the present. It's been a little while since I read through them.

For Wise Man's Fear, I listened to the audiobook of it, and liked it, but I did prefer the first book over the second. I was surprised by how much was left unanswered--the third book has a LOT of lifting to do if it's to close out everything in a way that doesn't feel rushed--and also felt that in places, the second book strayed into more familiar, less unique territory than its predecessor. For all that, it was very well written and enjoyable.

(Side note: a friend of mine, whose opinion I respect, regards The Wise Man's Fear as his favourite book of all time, so he is in the group that prefers book two to book one. I do believe that broadly speaking he's in the minority, but worth noting that the second book is very good.)

I would say that there's at least one passage, however, where I wished I was reading the book rather than listening to it--definitely one that I think would be superior in its text form.

I first found a tattered and torn copy Rothfuss’s Name of the Wind in a Soldier’s free library in Iraq (libraries would send their excess books over to become take one/leave one libraries). I’d never heard of it but thought the name was interesting. And that’s how a good title gets you hooked! I read it in two days, pulling that thing out of my bag every chance I got. It’s still one of my all-time favorites, even more tattered and torn than when I found it. 

I’m in the group that liked the second book, but felt it left more questions than answers. I fear that Rothfuss will go the way of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time and just keep making things more complicated until he can’t unravel it. If he does manage to wrap it up in three books, I’ll be highly impressed. 

If you want a smaller book of his, he also published a novelette called The Slow Regard Of Silent Things. Fantastic read, though it only has one character. 

Re-read the completed and resting story last night. Verbs and a couple of adjectives jumped out as needing replacement. Nixed three sentences from the denouement for brevity's sake and modified another for clarity.

Done.

Half done with the next story.

I have a question about story titles. How do you come up with one that really fits? Should you avoid some titles?

One of my story ideas was inspired by a line of dialogue from a movie. I wanted to use part of that line of dialogue for my title. But it has the word Hell in it & references going to Hell. I'm concerned the title may be off-putting. 

@dwh 

I know Dave has mentioned he thinks the title of a short story should also be a hook, but *how* to come up with them? LOL ... I still struggle. Sometimes mine are inspired by a snippet of poetry, or a song lyric (not copied though), but more often than not, it's inspired by a line or the theme of the story itself.

And if it helps, the title of my Finalist story last year was: "Hell Hath No Fury" -- didn't seem to bother Dave or Tim Powers any 😉
I based it off the old adage: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. The story was about an immortal Queen who escapes Hell and returns (chased by demon hound creatures from Hell) looking for revenge and to take back her world...
I figured it worked as a title in a two-fold way, because she's a pissed off woman (goddess) and because she was literally in hell ... 

@dwh

Your story title is the first hint of what's coming. It needs to be engaging and in some way evocative. A good way to do that is to use two things that don't typically go together to create a unique image. For example, we were just discussing 'The Name of the Wind' - an evocative title that has two things that aren't normally associated. Wind doesn't have a name, it just is. The title alone made me pick it up and as a precursor to the book itself, it was spot on, providing a hint to the most pivotal moment of the book. Figure out what those elements are in your story and see what you can come up with (of course, not posting it here because that would attribute the story to you. This is a blind contest!).

For WotF, just remember that your audience/judge is looking for PG-13 (angling more toward PG in my opinion). I think that you could use Hell in the title, depending on the context. If it's a variation of 'Go to Hell' or something similarly on the edge of crude, then probably not. On the other hand, you could probably use something more intriguing or amusing like 'Hell's Library: A Guide for Newcomers' and be just fine.

You mentioned that it's inspired by a dialogue line. Just be very careful about attribution. If it's a famous line, I wouldn't take the chance of using it verbatim for fear of getting called out for plagiarism. It would suck to get rejected before they even begin your story (does this happen, I don't know. I tend to err on the side of caution with these things.) I have a story inspired by a song that I plan to change the title of because I don't want to use the artist's song title. I imagine if it was somehow the winner and I began making money on a title that's already attributed to someone else, there might be...complications. 

Good luck!

On that topic of the narrator - not exactly the same thing but the Discworld footnotes are a bit like that. Maybe a footnote format would work for your story if you are still looking for ways to present it???????

I just submitted my story with the new portal thing. My first year entering all quarters. 

@aliciacay Thanks! My critique group liked the title, thought it was a good hook. And, you're so right, that is an important aspect of the story. Coming up with a different title would be difficult, since the current one works quite well.

@czing YES! I like it! Terry Pratchett’s footnotes always had me rolling!

@lost_bard Thanks!

I think the title is a good hint at what's coming in the story. And, thankfully, it's not a famous line of dialogue but has several common variations on the theme. Maybe theme is something I could look at for augmenting the title. Yes, the age of the audience is important, though it's probably in the PG-13 bracket, as is the story based on what it's centered around.

Posted by: @aliciacay

"Hell Hath No Fury"

Seems like a very fitting title, Alicia. I like the idea that she goes back. Cool.   

I agree with the other comments posted around the idea of a title (thanks @dwh). Definitely a first hook. Definitely something I'm still working on making brilliant. Dave F suggested you could take two ideas from your story that don't normally go together, similar to what David Hankins offered. So you could take a story about a doggy who becomes a fire mage wizard as 'Pup's Fire'. (*note-don't look too far into my example) At least here there are two things that don't normally go together. Anything that reflects the genre is also good.

It may also be worth noting that 8 out of the 12 Winners from WotF v.36 had titles with THREE words or less. None of them had more than five words in the title.

Posted by: @lost_bard

I first found a tattered and torn copy Rothfuss’s Name of the Wind in a Soldier’s free library in Iraq (libraries would send their excess books over to become take one/leave one libraries). I’d never heard of it but thought the name was interesting. And that’s how a good title gets you hooked! I read it in two days, pulling that thing out of my bag every chance I got. It’s still one of my all-time favorites, even more tattered and torn than when I found it. 

I’m in the group that liked the second book, but felt it left more questions than answers. I fear that Rothfuss will go the way of Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time and just keep making things more complicated until he can’t unravel it. If he does manage to wrap it up in three books, I’ll be highly impressed. 

If you want a smaller book of his, he also published a novelette called The Slow Regard Of Silent Things. Fantastic read, though it only has one character. 

I loved The Slow Regard of Silent Things! I've read everything he's written in that world (so far). 

He's got a way with poetic titles too, for sure. 

@scott_m_sands   Title is your first hook, so make it a good one. I thought I did a Super Secret on this, but can’t find it. I do teach it in my workshops, and teach a “Crazy Title” exercise as well. “Super-Duper Moongirl and the Amazing Moon Dawdler” began as my own crazy title exercise. I developed it because I noted many Nebula and Hugo winners had crazy long titles. Did it work for me? Listen to what Gregory Benford said at the WotF Volume 35 gala when he introduced my story. It’s one hour, six minutes into the program, I believe.

I’m not saying to do this for every story, but title is indeed your first hook. Make it a good one, and be sure it nails your theme.