Discussion: Q1 Volume 39

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

Some places do tiered forms, which helps with that for me.

I remember how excited I was to first get those personal rejections and higher-tiered form rejections. Now they're just frustrating. At some point I'm hoping to graduate from "I really enjoyed this story but thought it could use this and this and this, so I'm going to pass on it," into the realm of "I really enjoyed this story, and if you can change this and this and this, I'll buy it."

Sigh. Some day...

I'm still working on the first step: anything but a form rejection. But looking forward to the same "change X and we'll pay you $Y" step as @morgan-broadhead. Even better would be: "Here's the contract. Yes, that's the correct number of zeroes."

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

Some places do tiered forms, which helps with that for me.

I remember how excited I was to first get those personal rejections and higher-tiered form rejections. Now they're just frustrating. At some point I'm hoping to graduate from "I really enjoyed this story but thought it could use this and this and this, so I'm going to pass on it," into the realm of "I really enjoyed this story, and if you can change this and this and this, I'll buy it."

Sigh. Some day...

I still haven't gotten any "If you can change X Y Z" style revision requests yet. It's either been form R's, personal R's, or acceptances (and I haven't figured out a rhyme or reason to those yet, so I'm just going to keep writing the things I want to write when the mood strikes me).

Higher-tiered rejections are nice. Especially when they say something to the effect of 'we'd like to see more from you in future'. various podcasts/etc I've listened to have said that can be a good thing.

Of course, the few personal rejections I've had have been very encouraging, too.

Now for those sales...

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

Some places do tiered forms, which helps with that for me.

into the realm of "I really enjoyed this story, and if you can change this and this and this, I'll buy it."

 

I'm not sure those exist. At least, of the two "rewrite requests" I've had from pro markets, I sold one (the other sold to the next pro market, so I think the story improved -just not enough for the people askin...

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

 It's either been form R's, personal R's, or acceptances

It's very few personal R's and mine tend to gush a bit about the story. I think those get written by the person who advocated for it, however this gets done in house.  
It's weird to hear how much they love the story they're rejecting. But you're right - it keeps me writing my stories and not thinking too much about who might buy em.
The weirdest ones are the stories that seem like the best I've written gettin no love whatsoevah.
It's awful gratifying if they finally DO. How many rejections? 29? The Thirtieth might just TAKE! It's happened to me!

In 2021 I sold two pro-level stories, my first.
I received just over 200 rejections.
I'm guessing a lot of people encounter a ratio something like 1 / 100, as they try to establish themselves. 
It's a damn steep hill, I'll say that!

I've never personally gotten an R&R but I know people who have, and it really depends on the editor and the story. I know several that have been a challenge for the writer and not resulted in a sale and a few that have gone really well that did. But most places, especially the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. Just keep at it, don't give up, continue to learn and read and grow. Grit will out!

Ok starting so jibber jabber while waiting for results. I know I am a little early, but I'd rather think about the contest than current events. So whats your favorite genre to write and why?

I love reading fantasy, but I prefer writing sci-fi because world building in sci-fi is easier for me.

@craydimensional 

Hi Cray! I write everything. As you might know I have my YA epic fantasy adventure trilogy (the Otherworld trilogy) My 4th book Once Upon an Enchantress is a YA fantasy comedy. My 5th book Helen’s Tale is a prequel for the Otherworld trilogy centered around a side character. What sets it apart from the trilogy is that it’s a dark fantasy / psychological horror novel and not targeted at YAs. My sixth book is a YA fantasy romance, The First Buds of Spring. I’m planning to write a middle grade fantasy adventure next, and then a YA contemporary (literary) novel. I like to experiment with different genres and want to write a book of every genre in the future

@craydimensional jibber-jabber on! We all need it. Current events are horrible.

My favorite genre to write is science-fiction. My novel series is hard science-fiction. I also enjoy horror, fantasy, apocalyptic speculative fiction, and stories that I have no idea how to place in a genre but are definitely speculative fiction. 

Amusingly enough I believe I enjoy painting fantasy the most and after that very organic science fiction.

@HermioneLee 

I love ❤️ your approach of writing multiple genre. My first book was Romance with definite Psychological elements, however I haven’t ventured there for a little while.

@clfors 

I understand the desire to paint Fantasy. That’s the genera I grew up reading.

I am not sure who was my favorite author CS Lewis or Mercedes Lackey back then. It’s amazing what books can do to shape a kid’s mind.

@craydimensional 

thank you! Nobody has ever said that to me before. What you said makes me so happy. I always like challenging myself to new heights. The major problem I'm currently facing is the lack of motivation to go on writing lol

@hermionelee Ok I will attempt to provide motivation. When I was in middle school and high school't, I didn't have many friends. The characters in the books I read filled that void and gave me hope toward future. You can be that shining light to that one kid out there looking for it. Maybe that kid is stuck in a shelter, or is being picked on by other kids. Be there for them. You write in a perfect space for that. Show them there is a place they can be different or that there is hope beyond the current problems of world.

@craydimensional 

aww, thank you. Nicely worded. Everyone can have a huge impact on other people’s lives, even by giving them a simple word of encouragement.

I know it's too early for twitching, but I can't help but wonder at what stage the judging for Q1 is...  

@physa I was thinking the same thing.   I could really use a HM or better to keep me inspired.   I have my fingers crossed.

@physa I am always up for judging news.

Posted by: @rschibler

the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. 

I can see, on the Grinder, when a story's been held over, sometimes for weeks, then receive a form rejection. That seems to me to be not a very savvy way to bring a writer who's work caught the attention of your system, back. It's not just that they have big reading to do, they seem uninterested in cultivating a response from promising candidates.

My Q1 this time is maybe the most "WotF" story I've ever written —my preferred style isn't maybe so very fixed.
But that doesn't mean it will get any more attention; This story's been around —and hasn't sold yet!

Still, I'm with @toddjones: I could stand a bit of encouragement!

Will sit up and beg for headpats, thrown bones

Is it Thursday yet?

@crlisle 

 Thurrrrrrrsdaaaaaaay, yeah!!!

@dragonchef but is it just Thursday, or is it really Thursday???? Lol, it’s probably going to feel like impending Thursday the rest of the month!!

@clfors You’ve got a new coordinating judge, and the big workshop week and gala to plan for April. The workshop prep extends the judging period in the best of times. I wouldn’t assemble da minions just yet to start twitching. ?

Posted by: @angelslayah

Posted by: @rschibler

the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. 

I can see, on the Grinder, when a story's been held over, sometimes for weeks, then receive a form rejection. That seems to me to be not a very savvy way to bring a writer who's work caught the attention of your system, back. It's not just that they have big reading to do, they seem uninterested in cultivating a response from promising candidates.

It's hard as a writer to get those forms! I got a form rejection after 380 days once.

You read that right. Over a year.

It did not, in fact, endear me to that market. But I subbed my next appropriate story to them anyway. That's just the business. Short story markets often take 6+ months to finalize the process for stories (and authors) they love. Novels are, if anything, worse (on the trad pub side). I got a flat rejection from an agent after over a year once, too.

I can promise you, at least for the markets where I know people, it is not from a lack of interest in writers and their words. Nobody (well, very few people) works in publishing for the fame and the glory and certainly not the money. We do it because we love love love words and stories and writers and the craft. The slow response times are because there is just so much to do. Personals take time, everything takes time. The most important lesson about rejections (and probably the hardest to learn) is that it really isn't personal even when it really, REALLY, feels that way.

As for twitching, I won't be worrying about it until after the gala. If it happens before that, it'll be a surprise (but a welcome one... ... to be sure...)

Posted by: @angelslayah

Posted by: @rschibler

the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. 

I can see, on the Grinder, when a story's been held over, sometimes for weeks, then receive a form rejection. That seems to me to be not a very savvy way to bring a writer who's work caught the attention of your system, back. It's not just that they have big reading to do, they seem uninterested in cultivating a response from promising candidates.

Just had one of those, a story that extended in one market well past their average response time. Hopes going up, heart getting faster, watching for the response, knowing that this time it at least got past the slush reader ... and then a form reject. {Buzzzzz}

Ah, well. Turn it around and submit it elsewhere—and send another story to that market, too.

Posted by: @rschibler

Posted by: @angelslayah

Posted by: @rschibler

the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. 

I can see, on the Grinder, when a story's been held over, sometimes for weeks, then receive a form rejection. That seems to me to be not a very savvy way to bring a writer who's work caught the attention of your system, back. It's not just that they have big reading to do, they seem uninterested in cultivating a response from promising candidates.

 

You read that right. Over a year.

But I subbed my next appropriate story to them anyway. That's just the business. 

In Richard Matheson's "Mad House" (which is, like, the young writer loses his frekin mind -exactly where Stephen King picks up with The Shining. I mean you can really see the influence and the HOUSE is the MONSTER, anyway...) the character Chris flies into a rage when he gets a form rejection after 90 days. 
 
But this was written way back when: Stamped letters in the mail, your hardcopy returned with a stain, writing a note meant rolling paper into a machine and banging away... and somehow they had that time, while copy/paste the reader(s)/editor's notes into an email on a story you've held over (and never mentioned) somehow can't be done.

Of course you keep submitting. I'm blessed with a bad memory and I forget the offenders. But "that's just the business" is the kind of thing people used to say about a lot of things we've managed to improve about the world! 

Posted by: @ehonour

Posted by: @angelslayah

Posted by: @rschibler

the "big" pro markets are getting thousands of submissions each month, with slots for maybe eight, ten stories max. There's just no time for personals for the vast majority of pieces. Which means, that if you get personals, that's a really good sign that you're doing something right. 

I can see, on the Grinder, when a story's been held over, sometimes for weeks, then receive a form rejection. That seems to me to be not a very savvy way to bring a writer who's work caught the attention of your system, back. It's not just that they have big reading to do, they seem uninterested in cultivating a response from promising candidates.

Just had one of those, a story that extended in one market well past their average response time. Hopes going up, heart getting faster, watching for the response, knowing that this time it at least got past the slush reader ... and then a form reject. {Buzzzzz}

Ah, well. Turn it around and submit it elsewhere—and send another story to that market, too.

Without the SubGrinder I would not still be going through all this. And one thing it's shown me is that some markets are just way overtime sometimes, and others, they've rejected all the stories before they got to yours and all the ones for weeks after and that's different, that's special, a very near miss.

And they have every reason to believe I'm tracking this data. So, to not saying anything? That's rude! By all means keep submitting, but never submit! 

We wanna change the process we've got to speak as up, as community. 

It's time for me to be blunt: if a market is too slow for you, take your stories elsewhere. Or self-publish. But trying to protest and change things will be counterproductive.

You're not telling anyone anything they don't know. These markets know that they're slow. No market wants to be slow. If they could be faster, they would.

As mentioned upthread, some of them receive hundreds of submissions per month, with maybe ten open slots to fill. (Probably less. A few slots are set aside for big names who will sell copies.) More than hundreds. In the 90s, F&SF was receiving 1,400 submissions per month; and one estimate is that submissions went up nearly ten-fold when markets switched to electronic submissions. (But the number of good submissions didn't go up at all.) Keeping up with the slush is a monumental task. Some markets fall behind. That's just the way it is.

If you think it can be done better, I recommend you volunteer as a slush reader. It's a great education (and can show you just how bad some writing can be). Or start your own market, if you think it's easy. Show us how it's done.

"But some markets are fast!" you say? Yes. Great for them. Submit there.

I encourage you to choose where you submit, based on whatever criteria you choose. It's your career, you have to make your decisions.

But thinking you can change these markets will only frustrate you. And trying to change them, trying to organize and protest, can hurt your career. Every editor I've ever spoken with says they never remember a bad story (1,400 per month, who could?), but they remember bad authors. Their jobs are hard and not particularly well paid. Anyone who makes the job harder, they remember. And editors talk to other editors. A bad reputation can spread.

You're not going to like this message. You're going to argue with me. You're going to say I'm old and out of touch and part of the problem. You're going to say that because I've "made it", I've forgotten what it's like to be a new writer trying to break in. (Fun fact: I have to sit through the slush pile just like everybody else. I still sometimes have 400-day waits.) Maybe you'll get angry with me, maybe write me off.

And after all of that, nothing will change. Including the wait times.