Cliches that should be put to bed...

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

Something else I've been thinking about that's somewhat related to this topic: reading a story set in the far future that has references to current popular culture, especially music and movies. Think about it, what's the oldest song you can think of that's actually still relevant to some audiences today? Elvis? Maybe the Beatles? "Classic" Rock from the 70's and 80'? Even if we go back to Elvis or Frank Sinatra, we're still talking about music that is only @ 60-80 years old.

Nothing throws me out of a story more than reading about someone living 400 years in the future remembering this one popular song back on Earth called "Great Balls of Fire." Sorry. No. Uh uh. Does anyone here remember any song that's older than 300 years? Songs just aren't gonna stick around in the general population more than fifty or sixty years. Same with movies.

One solution for this is to create what I call "future past." We need to create a past that would still be relevant to the people living in that time period. Want your character to remember an "old" song, actor, musical artist, or film? Make it up! If your story is set in 2347, who would be a popular band or artist from, say, 2280? Make it up! Create one or two verses of your own song lyrics, something that would make sense or add depth to the current story situation and be meaningful to your character. Plus, this has the added benefit of avoiding any nasty copyright infringements or asking permission to use someone else's intellectual property.

Happy creating!

I agree with you to an extent, but plenty of music has been around for 200 years or more that's still famous. Beethoven's 9th, Jingle Bells, Amazing Grace...

Popular culture is more preserved than ever, more accessible than ever, and spreads quicker than ever. The Beatles were the first worldwide phenomenon, and they'll never be forgotten. Even if humans are wiped from Earth there will be more traces of them than Beethoven ever left. We not only have plastic but also digital preservation (hello, future person 200 years from now - please read my stories if you can find them). Music is reused in TV and film and becomes relevant again decades and even centuries after its origin.

Some music will survive for a long, long, long time. We don't know what music that is yet, but it's more likely to be those that had a big cultural impact or were tied to something important (like Jingle Bells being tied to festivities).

Coincidentally, I was talking about something similar in a Reddit thread yesterday. Most music will disappear because so much of it exists, but plenty will be remembered and referenced for centuries to come.

And sometimes, perhaps the references themselves aren't the problem; it's the fact they're not believable in context. But of course that context is different for everyone.

To add to the above, you've got me thinking about my musical references, and perhaps by luck I think they all work in context. E.g. I have a dystopian future story that references Celine Dion, and Titanic is one of the biggest grossing films of all-time. So she's likely to be around.

We don't know what songs that aren't big now will be big in future, but we can choose certain songs that have more chance of lasting hundreds of years. The reaction to Taylor Swift's "Love Story" at Wembley Stadium registered as seismic activity, as did "Shake it Off" to a lesser extent. "You'll Never Walk Alone" is Liverpool FC's anthem. Songs like those should be pretty safe.

Posted by: @bootzenkatzen

↑

I am inclined to disagree...

Same here.

Posted by: @bootzenkatzen

↑

There's also plenty of celtic/medival music that you can hear variations of at ren faires, so still alive and well

Not to mention the dances.

Even Sting's music from the labrinth.

Master and Commander had songs and music 2 centuries? old.

Who doesn't know Shakespeare, or at least a couple of great classical composers.

The Odyssey.

Old sea shanties or work and slave songs.

Christmas songs.

Even more so in 400+ years due to actually recording them now.

Posted by: @bootzenkatzen

↑

Straight up covers of older music happen all the time too.

Exactly like writing, film, tv, it's all exactly the same thing.

We have been brainwashed to pay for the same thing, again and again.

The exact stories may fade, but the almighty algorithm is eternal.

Posted by: @bootzenkatzen

↑

or they could be listening to "Zorthrip and the Hyperdrives" cover of "Great Balls of Fire"

I just think everyone will be listening to Johnny B. Goode.

Only it will be thought to be alien music from Ophiuchus.

Posted by: @alexh

↑

We don't know what songs that aren't big now will be big in future

Take It's a wonderful life.

Apparently a flop.

Then it fell into public domain.

Hey! Free Christmas film.

Every station played it for free for years.

You know that classic Christmas film It's a wonderful life..?

PS

Or, really go to town and use the Hurrian Hymns.

No IP rights on those.

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

Nothing throws me out of a story more than reading about someone living 400 years in the future remembering this one popular song back on Earth called "Great Balls of Fire." Sorry.

Greensleeves (446 years old) would love to say hi.

Posted by: @ease

↑

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

Nothing throws me out of a story more than reading about someone living 400 years in the future remembering this one popular song back on Earth called "Great Balls of Fire." Sorry.

Greensleeves (446 years old) would love to say hi.

to be fair, I'm hoping 'Great Balls of Fire" is not in the same category as Greensleeves in terms of durability 🤣 

But agreed - many hymns, carols, The star spangled banner continue, which probably tells us about catgeories that may endure - ones associated with religions, traditions, or countries/political ideologies are very fair game to endure and reference. Pop songs, mostly probably less so. But ya know, if Commander Data can sing Irving Berlin as a wedding gift to Riker and Troi... 😉

Posted by: @ease

↑

Greensleeves (446 years old) would love to say hi.

I had to Google it. Never heard of it and had no idea what it was! LOL

Posted by: @alexh

↑

To add to the above, you've got me thinking about my musical references, and perhaps by luck I think they all work in context. E.g. I have a dystopian future story that references Celine Dion, and Titanic is one of the biggest grossing films of all-time. So she's likely to be around.

I can't hear that song without hearing the meme-ified horrible recorder version in my head 🤣 

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

I had to Google it. Never heard of it and had no idea what it was! LOL

Wow!

Ok.

There must be some reason why some people know of an old song well, and others don't.

I knew Greensleeves as a kid, so that likey made an impression.

If a family doesn't find it, likely their kids won't know about it.

If a school uses it, 100s of families will become exposed.

If it blows up online, even more.

Think safety dance, didn't that have increased popularity online? 

Like "keep calm and carry on", wasn't that discovered after being basically lost for a number of decades and then suddenly exploded.

So things don't need to be around for 400 years.

They just need to be rediscovered in 400 years.

Let's hope the tape with crazy frog doesn't last that long.

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

Posted by: @ease

↑

Greensleeves (446 years old) would love to say hi.

I had to Google it. Never heard of it and had no idea what it was! LOL

 

I mean I'm literally shocked... but maybe this is another cultural divide...? I can't imagine any UK kid not knowing this. Is this not a 'thing' in the US? It plays almost every stereotypical cliched TV comedy scene about medieval England or Ren Faires....

@gideonpsmith 

Yep. Just goes to prove the world is a great big place, and not everyone plays inside everyone else’s bubbles. 

Service guarantees citizenship in our bubble.

Found this.

https://open.spotify.com/track/2ArqOo59GeYlfrGcq5aNwG

Took me a couple of listens, but it's in there.

So it's certainly known in the US.

PS

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rMRYLgnR4OU&pp=ygUUR3JlZW5zbGV2ZXMgKHVzIGFybXk%3D

Much better.

PPS

Dah!

Icecream!!!

Even in the US it's used as icecream truck music.

I remember it played as the truck moved about the 'burbs. 

I also remember the delivery dan song off by heart (well, 2 lines, if there was more?).

And as the basis for other songs, like in How the west was won.

An issue with making up new bands and things may be IP.

If it's not your main Characters, you may have a hard time protecting it.

If you create a band name, are you going to trademark it?

Look at the PePe frog character, now apparently a hate symbol, because the creator didn't legally stop people using it.

What if your band becomes the latest terror group?

It may look bad on you when people find out where the name came from.

Look at romper stomper movie, a gang tried to use the fictitious gangs name, but the film production stopped them in court.

Something to think about.

Yeah…I’m just not gonna get that worked up over it. 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

Besides, any original work you publish is automatically protected by copyright laws. 

Matt Furie, owner of the copyright on Pepe the Frog, successfully sued "Infowars" and Alex Jones in 2019 for infringement, receiving $15k and forcing "Infowars" to destroy all remaining stock that included the image. Furie has sued successfully in other infringement cases as well.

In the US, a copyright exists the instant an original work is created and fixed in tangible form (hard drive, paper, recording tape, canvas, the side of a building, etc.). Copyright does not prevent illegal copies from being made and distributed any more than criminal law prevents murder. Copyright law defines possession for the original creator and a means of redress against unauthorized use.

Can Matt Furie sue anyone who copies Pepe and uses it against his wishes? Yes, but few artists have the means or inclination to track down every last idiot, so they usually confine themselves to defending against commercial use of their work. In one case, Furie stopped an author from distributing his islamophobic children's book, and forced the author to donate all proceeds of previously sold books to the charity "Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Copyright protects the creator/owner of a work, but only if that creator/owner chooses to enforce the copyright.

Back to the Topic:

"It would change his/her/their life forever," a favorite of Stan Lee, should be put to rest forever.

Frolick. Frolick now!

Not, Excelsior!!!?

He paused, waiting for what felt like an eternity, until she blinked and answered, "Yes."

Wait. What? An eternity? No. 

Just no. 

Even this: An hour went by that felt more like two years. (I read that one last night)

These are the cliches I believe should be put to bed. Let's find creative alternatives. The one I used in my winner was pretty clever (if I do say so myself). See if you can find it. 

Here's one from my WiP: Hours go by, or two that feel like six, but it’s only two because I’ve got a damned accurate internal clock. One of my enhancements.

Here's one I just made up: Time stretched while I held my breath and waited for those tiny white dots to zing across my vision. That's the measures of time that screams, breathe! Or a precursor to passing out. It could go either way. 

IMO, even though that's a lot more words, it's more fun to read and busts a cliche.

So, before you write: I put bread in the toaster and waited for what felt like a million years then, pop, finally, my toast! Consider that a million years if a very, very long time. 😊 

Posted by: @tj_knight

↑

 

So, before you write: I put bread in the toaster and waited for what felt like a million years then, pop, finally, my toast! Consider that a million years if a very, very long time. 😊 

 

Unless the toaster were on Earth and you moved away from it at the speed of light, and then a million years would be instantaneous. Just a thought 😉

I remember years ago I was describing to a friend how my day had been going, and I said something like, "And after about three more hours I checked the clock and fifteen minutes had passed." But a whole series of those.

Posted by: @atkirk

↑

I remember years ago I was describing to a friend how my day had been going, and I said something like, "And after about three more hours I checked the clock and fifteen minutes had passed." But a whole series of those.

That seems legit. I think we've all been there. I was there for all five years of high school...

Realistic times (again, IMO) evoke emotions in me. AKA, 3 hours = 15 minutes reminded me of high school (gee, thanks). But seriously, I say keep the times smaller. Seconds feel like minutes, minutes feel like an hour. But a pause in a conversation that feels like an "eternity" drives me bonkers. 

Another cliche that I rediscovered listening to an audiobook on my drive in this morning. It's now a given that no character can ever approach a door or turn a doorknob without pausing to look back and speak some last-minute piece of dialogue.

Flynn stepped through the doorway, then paused, looking back. "Best to sleep with one eye open," he told Carter, then shut the door behind him.

Celia reached for the door handle, but Melanie called out behind her. "If you walk out that door, you'll regret it." Celia opened the door and left.

Seriously, can't characters have their conversations and just leave? Why does every critical bit of information have to take place across a threshold? Every time I read or hear a character approaching a door now, I say to myself, "Here it comes," and sure enough, the author makes them stop. It's become very predictable.

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

↑

It's now a given that no character can ever approach a door or turn a doorknob without pausing to look back and speak some last-minute piece of dialogue.

Eh, I feel like there's some truth to this one. My aunt perfected the art of getting off the final line of an argument before slamming the door behind her. And thresholds do make hesitant people pause before they commit, like your first example. 

Can it be overdone? Sure. But I've never noticed this enough for it to bug me. 

@reigheena 

Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon - now that I've pointed it out to you, you'll start noticing it more, and it will bug you! LOL

I'm with @reigheena - saying it at the door, is the adult version of the teenager muttering their unwanted opinion under his/her breath 😉

I just found this in my MS. 

I turn the doorknob, pause, then look over at her twinkling eyes and ask, “What’s your name?”

Sorry @morgan-broadhead ! 

@tj_knight 

I approach the door. Stop. Very pointedly avoid touching the doorknob, pause, then look over at her twinkling eyes and ask, “What’s your name?”

TBH I never noticed before. I do now - already. 

Reminds me of when characters in movies or TV have food before them and go to take a bite, then stop. Yeah, we know it's a prop and you can't actually eat it, but just push it around the plate like they do on Big Bang Theory. 🤣 

so - I think there are differences in types of cliches. There are ones that are specific word combos and there are ones that are actions (there may be more). I think the latter can be done in an original way as long as they're real things people do - my issues with people biting the inside of their mouth is... I don't think people really do it. At least nowhere near as often and deliberately as its portrayed in fiction. But the having the last word from the door? I do it myself! My spouse does it. My two teenage kids do it. My mother does it. My mother in law does it. My cowrokers do it! Now maybe I just live in a very dysfunctional world, but that then means to me, though I might need to come up with a less jaded/pat way of describing it and watch how frequently I use it, its a very real human psychological trick, and therefore removal of it would actually make the book less real....

My other issues with cliches is when they're stereotypical in a bad way (movies where the woman always falls running away and has to be rescued, or evil people are always fat (or vice versa) or the one minority was always funny or the unattractive girl becomes pretty by taking off her glasses - I'm sure one of our recent active members would have pointed to a movie such as Not Another Teen Movie as poking fun at these specific things). Those are cliches that don't stand up well.

And then there are cliches of prose itself. If your hero's heart pounds every time, and her 'blood runs cold', or her "knees go weak' then those are opportunities for less well trod word choices. 

as another side comment, I also think you don't want every sentence to sing. Some words are connective tissue. If they all have the same brilliance its hard for your true diamonds (deliberate cliche 😉- another use  ) to shine. Contrast is also a writers tool.

@gideonpsmith Good points!

I agree in that cliche can be bad or good depending why it's a cliche and how it's written. I must comment on the biting the inside of the mouth thing, and I hope this doesn't ruin your day, but I'm doing it as I'm writing this 😀 For me it's a cliche based on real human behaviour and thus doesn't bother me, depending how it's written of course. For me it's just another stim (self stimulatory behaviour like tapping your foot).

Can we count when a character's lips are in a thin line? Because that one totally makes my lips go into a thin line.