The Grunts

Any tips on how to tune in on reader's grunts? My First Reader reads silently, and my other beta readers are separated by a couple of screens and hundreds/thousands of miles  

Yeah, train them on the three grunts and then ask them to mark those places.

I suck at critting this way. 

I often break the rule and tell people “exactly how to fix this”. (But I usually ask first, and try to always ask first.)

Though in my defense, I aim to illuminate and educate (if the need is there). I don’t expect anyone to use my exact words, only to see an alternative possibility. (unless it’s like a one word suggestion)

Hopefully I haven’t offended too many folks over the years.  

@tj_knight If you get offended by a critique, you're a diarist, not a writer. Granted, if someone rolled in and shouted "yer werk sux the big ones!" I'd probably sniffle and ask why... but if they could follow up with the "why", then I'd be satisfied.

If you want to be an author, you have to get used to separating yourself from your work AND not making everyone happy. Because if you write anything that sells, hoooo buddy, better buckle in for people that get offended over puppies being mildly hungry and the sun not shining the perfect shade of gold.

@babooher can you qualify text that is "disgusting or offensive"? I don't know what you mean, exactly, and I don't want to respond in ignorance.

Posted by: @tj_knight

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I suck at critting this way. 

I often break the rule and tell people “exactly how to fix this”. (But I usually ask first, and try to always ask first.)

Though in my defense, I aim to illuminate and educate (if the need is there). I don’t expect anyone to use my exact words, only to see an alternative possibility. (unless it’s like a one word suggestion)

Hopefully I haven’t offended too many folks over the years.  

I enjoy your crits, TJ, and your suggestions! I've always been of the opinion that, once a story leaves my hands, and I send it out into the world, it no longer belongs to me; it now belongs to the reader, and the reader is always right (except when the reader is wrong). Also, I admit I have a hard time with looking at my stories objectively, so outside insight is always appreciated.

Posted by: @morgan-broadhead

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I admit I have a hard time with looking at my stories objectively

 

Yes @morgan-broadhead all of mine are winners. Nebula/Hugo nominees no less. Until they are rejected, or I sit down to re-read them 6 months later and then they are no doubt the worst thing any human, or non-human, has ever written in the history of the universe.

I'm pretty certain I can't be right both times

@sade Like all the grunts, each is subjective. The idea is to see where your readers are giving up on the text. If a number of them are grossed out by something or turned off from reading, it's nice to know where. Maybe they are supposed to be grossed out, but if not, you might have a problem. That's all the grunts are, a diagnostic tool, and not a mandate.

@gideonpsmith hey, how can you be a hugo/nebula nominee and still compete here? I thought you had to be a "professional" writer with the sfwa to be nominated. Maybe there's a workaround.

Posted by: @ellis

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@gideonpsmith hey, how can you be a hugo/nebula nominee and still compete here? I thought you had to be a "professional" writer with the sfwa to be nominated. Maybe there's a workaround.

hey @sade ! I should work on making my writing clearer I was responding to morgans statement that its hard to evaluate our own writing. I just agreed by saying when I wrote my pieces they seemed great. When I wrote them I felt they were future competition winners/hugos/nebulas/what-have-you but 6 months later, when they've been rejected, I decide they're garbage. 

I most certainly do not in reality have hugos or nebulas. But maybe someone on this forum will one day. Maybe you! We should all dream

@gideonpsmith No, perhaps it was my hasty read of your post! I was just aghast that one could be a hugo/nebula nominee and yet still only receive HMs...abandon hope all ye who enter, lol.

@sade lol. No. definitely no nebula here. But there is at least one person on the boards who is both a competition winner and a Nebula nominee -  @martin-l-shoemaker 

Martin and the others who 'graduate' or have other things to share who hang on and partake is part of what makes this board so wonderful. The depth of talent and the giving back by people.

Posted by: @ellis

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@gideonpsmith hey, how can you be a hugo/nebula nominee and still compete here? I thought you had to be a "professional" writer with the sfwa to be nominated. Maybe there's a workaround.

Gideon is correct. I received my Nebula nomination after I won WotF, and I'm still here.

It's also complicated. The rules for pro'ing out say you're ineligible after more than three qualifying short stories are published. (You'd be amazed how many people look at that and conclude three is more than three. No, four is more than three. Three is three.) So it's entirely possible to have one to three award-winning stories published and still be eligible. (The rules also say you're ineligible after one novel, or more than one "short novel", whatever that is.)

Is that a good thing, though? That's a matter of some debate. The purpose of the Contest is to encourage new writers. It's possible that a new writer who sees a winner is already an award winner might get discouraged at their chances. They shouldn't! But it's understandable.

In my case, I was on the verge of pro'ing out. Two stories in Analog; and if Galaxy's Edge became SFWA qualified, my two stories there would retroactively disqualify me. So I sent in what might be my last eligible entry, because you're not disqualified as long as you're eligible on the day you send it. (This is why I always submitted on the first day of the quarter, not the last.)

Then I received email from Gardner Dozois, informing me that he was buying "Murder on the Aldrin Express" for Year's Best Science Fiction 31. That wouldn't be published until July (this was November), so it wouldn't affect my eligibility for two more quarters; but it didn't feel right to me. I called Joni and explained that I was still technically eligible, but I felt it was time to disqualify myself after that quarter. She said (paraphrased), "Then I guess you'd better win it!" (And I did.)

I would do the same thing today, but... My V31 mate Auston Habershaw had a novel published after he won but before V31 came out. I had three stories in Analog before V31. I read at least one question from a reader about why there were pro winners in that volume. The rules can confuse people at the edges.

Posted by: @ellis

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@babooher can you qualify text that is "disgusting or offensive"? I don't know what you mean, exactly, and I don't want to respond in ignorance.

Read "Sluggish" in the January/February 2024 Analog. My first reader called it the grossest thing he ever read. My four writer friends who inspired it have disavowed it. It was too gross for them. Biological hard science fiction is gross.

But Analog liked it! Gross is in the eye of the beholder.

@martin-l-shoemaker What are the best scfi and fantasy sites to submit WotF stories to? I see you list Analog; do they accept submissions?

@babooher I see what you're saying! I think a grunt for me that might be "gross" is when a character has to urinate/defecate and it's not critical to the story. Another gross is American Psycho. A lot of people love that book but MY GOD if I could wipe some of the images from my brain, I would.

Posted by: @ellis

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@martin-l-shoemaker What are the best scfi and fantasy sites to submit WotF stories to? I see you list Analog; do they accept submissions?

They do!

I recommend searching for markets on Duotrope. There's a free alternative (Submission Grinder), but Duotrope has more listings and more features, including agent listings and art markets. The cost is $5 per month or $50 per year.

@martin-l-shoemaker oh cool, I’ll check it! Thank you

Posted by: @ellis

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What are the best scfi and fantasy sites to submit WotF stories to?

There used to be a great list in the super secrets thread, not sure if it's still there or not - but this is a tough question because so much of selling stories is fit! This even comes up with WotF, especially in Q4 - you could have written the best dragon romance ever, but if they already have one in the volume it's gonna be a tough sell.

But for markets outside of WotF, they have dedicated readers who expect certain kinds of stories, and their editorial team is looking for specific things. When I'm reading for Apex, I'm looking for Apexy stories. For us, that means strange, surreal, shocking, beautiful, with a certain vibe and depth. So a fantasy story that got a SHM at WotF might be a great fit for Galaxy's Edge or Beneath Ceaseless Skies, but wouldn't sell at Apex or Nightmare. (Or a dark scifi might be a great fit for Apex, but not BCS!)

WotF is great because it's fairly wide open "speculative fiction", but with other markets, I really encourage you to read a sample of what they're publishing so you can send your best-fitting stories to the most appropriate markets first.

Disclaimer applies - never self reject. I've sent vaguely scifi stories to Analong and light spec to BCS on the off chance it suits their tastes, though I wouldn't send straight fantasy to Apex or horror to Dream Forge.

Before this becomes an essay, I also want to suggest that 'best' is subjective, too. The best sale for me might be a meh for someone else, and vice versa! Some writers prioritize pay, or readership, or awards, or just love the vibe of a particular market!

(I prefer the Submission Grinder to Duotrope - YMMV.)

@sade I was going to write an extended response but @rschibler pretty much covered everything I would have said

- where depends on the story and you (your priorities).

- to get an idea of story fit, read some of the magazines. Even within broad categories like SciFi or fantasy there are definite flavor leanings to the different venues

- never tried duotrope as I found submission grinder first and it its free (my favorite price!) and as it does everything I need, I've never felt the need to explore duotrope, though I've heard its good 

- If you want to get granular/nerdy about the 'you' part I will say I really liked this article on the SFWA blog that suggests a way to approach these decisions.

https://www.sfwa.org/2020/07/28/submission-tetris-an-analytic-approach/

It's not exhaustive with criteria to consider (for instance, if I'm choosing between two lower level, low paid, venues, where pay, and prestige isn't a factor, I often choose based on whether I like their cover art, as I have a web page and I want it to look pretty (lol), so nice cover art creates a nice link for my work if its accepted there...) but the general concept of the algorithm is good and can be applied to whatever criteria matter to you. 

https://www.fawns.ca/blog

I like to read the insightful comments Angelique Fawn shares.

I recommend adding her blogsite as a resource.

Posted by: @rschibler

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Posted by: @ellis

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What are the best scfi and fantasy sites to submit WotF stories to?

There used to be a great list in the super secrets thread, not sure if it's still there or not - but this is a tough question because so much of selling stories is fit! This even comes up with WotF, especially in Q4 - you could have written the best dragon romance ever, but if they already have one in the volume it's gonna be a tough sell.

But for markets outside of WotF, they have dedicated readers who expect certain kinds of stories, and their editorial team is looking for specific things. When I'm reading for Apex, I'm looking for Apexy stories. For us, that means strange, surreal, shocking, beautiful, with a certain vibe and depth. So a fantasy story that got a SHM at WotF might be a great fit for Galaxy's Edge or Beneath Ceaseless Skies, but wouldn't sell at Apex or Nightmare. (Or a dark scifi might be a great fit for Apex, but not BCS!)

WotF is great because it's fairly wide open "speculative fiction", but with other markets, I really encourage you to read a sample of what they're publishing so you can send your best-fitting stories to the most appropriate markets first.

Disclaimer applies - never self reject. I've sent vaguely scifi stories to Analong and light spec to BCS on the off chance it suits their tastes, though I wouldn't send straight fantasy to Apex or horror to Dream Forge.

Before this becomes an essay, I also want to suggest that 'best' is subjective, too. The best sale for me might be a meh for someone else, and vice versa! Some writers prioritize pay, or readership, or awards, or just love the vibe of a particular market!

(I prefer the Submission Grinder to Duotrope - YMMV.)

That's good timing for me about self-rejection, because I tried really hard (and eventually succeeded) to not self-reject last night, with a story I thought didn't fit the market but might. I thought about adding a note in the cover letter saying as much but decided it was best not to do that either.

Posted by: @alexh

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I tried really hard (and eventually succeeded) to not self-reject last night

Go you!

@rschibler Ask and you shall recieve! This is great, thank you very much! I appreciate it.

@gideonpsmith oh perfect! I have so many good resources to check out now, thank you!