Discussion: Q1 Volume 39

@angelslayah 

"No more than three" means it's actually your fourth professional publication that the contest counts as disqualifying you from further entries. Until that publication date, you're good to submit to the contest, you're still considered an amateur here. Another reason to get your stories in early when you're getting close.

But there's nothing wrong with pro-ing out. That's the point of the contest, to help you advance from amateur to professional writer!

Keep swinging!

Posted by: @wulfmoon

@angelslayah 

"No more than three" means it's actually your fourth professional publication that the contest counts as disqualifying you from further entries.

Hey, I hadn't thought of that, thanks! 
Yeah, I got no "bittersweet" about, whajacallit? "Proing-out?" But what it means is that right now I got THREE stories stuck the amber of WotF judging. Stories that could be out-and-about!

Posted by: @disgruntledpeony

How a story does at one market is no measure of how it will do another.  

Yeah, my first pro-rates-tale (just sold in Sept) had been AROUND the block. Contests and periodicals seem to feature different things, as well.

I need to clarify the statement about no time off. I do take breaks from writing short stories.

I write music along with new songs, sometimes I write poetry. Now I'm giving map-making a go.

The map will help a novel I'm developing expand. Plus, I sit down with a good book and read, and label the time as research.

It's a good thing I have a wife that understands me.

Write on!

Posted by: @storysinger

Now I'm giving map-making a go.

The map will help a novel I'm developing expand.

I like this idea. I’m assuming that you’re using online resources to learn map-making. Where do you go for that?

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question! I did Story a Day September last month so I have a bunch of shorter items to try to grow into bigger things. With NaNo coming up as well, I think I'll try to write one story this month, then set it aside during NaNo and either polish or write a new one in December as well.

Another technical question: I know that the max word count is 17k, but what's the typical word count of what's being accepted? Reading the anthologies, I'm not seeing many 1000 word stories, if you know what I mean. What is the typical range of something you'd submit? Has anyone compiled data on how long the winning stories are?

@lizbusby I can't say how long my current story is, because that might give away who the author is. ? However, it just so happens that I started reading some older anthologies last week (volumes 27 and 28) and was also curious to know how long the stories were. Assuming @ 250 words per page, it seems most stories are in the 7K - 13K range. Some a tad shorter, some a tad longer. Definitely no flash, because those tend to lack appropriate character development and try/fail cycles and proper resolutions, etc.

@lizbusby I did a Super Secret on it. https://writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/22/#post-26825

Posted by: @wulfmoon

@lizbusby I did a Super Secret on it. https://writersofthefuture.com/forum/the-contest-quarterly-topics-and-other-items/wulf-moons-super-secrets-workshop-challenge/paged/22/#post-26825

I just knew someone else had already done the math. ? Thank you!

@morgan-broadhead Thanks for that. Yeah, I figured flash wouldn't fly, but I'm a new-ish short story writer so I don't have a good sense of length yet.

Posted by: @lizbusby

@morgan-broadhead Thanks for that. Yeah, I figured flash wouldn't fly, but I'm a new-ish short story writer so I don't have a good sense of length yet.

Dave has often said he likes detailed worldbuilding, and flash necessarily limits the space to accomplish that. Great flash can give the illusion of worldbuilding, but it’s like sleight of hand rather than true magic. You will likely lose to someone that wrote a compelling story AND took extra space to add more vivid details from their world. You are trying to win an international short story & novelette contest. 

Best of success!

Moon

I have to pick between 3 seeds. Trying to decide the best one to grow a story from for 1 QTR v39. 

@craydimensional 

Always fun. You could try the whole "which one would you be most disappointed if you didn't get to write it" deal. Might work?
Of course, "Einy-meiny-miney-mo..." is still a good option.   

Posted by: @storysinger

The map will help a novel I'm developing expanding.

If you've got some time and wanna really throw some detail into it, have a look at WorldAnvil.com
I've only explored a little bit of this (I think you could get lost in it), but there are some really cool features with maps, lineage, historic events and such.

@scott_m_sands I keep thinking about a fourth that I didn’t do KYD on because there wasn’t a prompt.

Okay, I'm throwing out story two, and greasing my hair back to take a dash at a third one instead...

(Hush, now.)

Honestly, I've just been having no fun at all writing the first two, and I've written enough by now to know that the stories I don't enjoy writing aren't stories anyone else will enjoy reading, either. I like the ideas I had for these two, but they need some time to sit, ferment, and mature enough to be worth the telling, I think. This third one is an older idea, one that I never did justice to in its earlier incarnation--I pulling it from the dust and cobwebs, kept the title (the only part of it worth saving, save for the bones deep beneath), and started work on that tonight.

I'm already having a lot more fun with it, too. I don't know if it'll end up being the story I want to submit into the Contest for this quarter, but I'm pretty confident now that it'll end up good, at least. The bones of the story I've laid out are a big improvement compared to the original, and I much prefer the way this story ends. And, given the setup, the ending of the story is all but inevitable--though that inevitability should take some time to unfold for the reader to understand. So, all I have to figure out now is how to get to it...

Posted by: @doctorjest

the stories I don't enjoy writing aren't stories anyone else will enjoy reading, either

Totally, Doctor Jest. And it's nice when the story is finished, you can actually feel much more confident about its chances when you send it out.

@craydimensional 

Lol, Cray. You seem to have an unusual problem there. Some folk have 'no ideas' to choose from at all!
Do let us know when you decide.

@scott_m_sands I think I've decided. There is one close to my heart, so I'm following that one. Time to research.

@craydimensional 

Great! Nice to finally have a direction. May your research be swift, though thorough, your writing enjoyable and rewarding. With a few Super Secrets, I'm sure it'll soar!

Happy researching.

Posted by: @doctorjest

Okay, I'm throwing out story two, and greasing my hair back to take a dash at a third one instead...

(Hush, now.)

Honestly, I've just been having no fun at all writing the first two, and I've written enough by now to know that the stories I don't enjoy writing aren't stories anyone else will enjoy reading, either. I like the ideas I had for these two, but they need some time to sit, ferment, and mature enough to be worth the telling, I think. This third one is an older idea, one that I never did justice to in its earlier incarnation--I pulling it from the dust and cobwebs, kept the title (the only part of it worth saving, save for the bones deep beneath), and started work on that tonight.

I'm already having a lot more fun with it, too. I don't know if it'll end up being the story I want to submit into the Contest for this quarter, but I'm pretty confident now that it'll end up good, at least. The bones of the story I've laid out are a big improvement compared to the original, and I much prefer the way this story ends. And, given the setup, the ending of the story is all but inevitable--though that inevitability should take some time to unfold for the reader to understand. So, all I have to figure out now is how to get to it...

I am so much the same on this. When the story isn't coming along it usually means it needs more time to percolate until it can be fun to write.

My one problem is that lately I've been struggling with a few where I really want to almost completely re-write but maybe not completely enough. I am not sure if it is that they haven't percolated enough or that I just am clinging to pieces of them and that is making it way harder to meaningfully overhaul them. I mostly don't have this problem when I am doing big revisions that are still 'edits' and not re-writes. When I'm doing that I can be pretty mercenary when it comes to cutting things out. Maybe I just haven't found the technique that works for re-writes for me yet I do know for sure I'm not willing to drop those ideas forever so I guess I'll have to figure something out.

First draft done on a shiny new story. Nine days from idea to completion.

How do he do dat?

It's magic. Well, in this case, it's a pre-created universe where only one item is magical. I've written a page and a half of rules for the item and it always plays a central part in the stories I write within this universe. I think of a scenario and place it within a particular genre and then I throw the magical item in to see what shakes out. This time, a very nice little story occurred to me, complete with a great twist. Nine days later, new story.

Milieu work, world-building, or whatever you wish to call the compilation of the rules governing a story, is necessary to write with speed. I'm a discovery writer for the most part but when my genre fiction deviates from the laws of the real world, I have to have preset limits. In soft sci-fi, what is the speed limit? In fantasy, what is the cost of magic? In steampunk, why do people wear those little hats?

I write the rules in outline form for easy reference. And since I have those rules down, I no longer have to spend time on them while writing. Pre-created rules for plot-defining props, plot-critical infrastructure, and unnatural physical laws give me a leg up on writing with speed.

Have fun.

Posted by: @doctorjest

stories I don't enjoy writing aren't stories anyone else will enjoy reading, either

This seems intuitive and like a self-evident truth, but I wonder if it's really so.
Let me argue from "creative coding" which is a thing I do and sometimes teach. 
Of course I have to want and like the thing I'm trying to make -the thing I finally settle on making, sometimes- but the process can be extraordinarily difficult, even painful -my brain, or at lest my thinking, has to grow out of its old shapes.
Honestly don't know if, or how, this translates to writing but, right now I'm "trying something different" on a short story and I find I can hardly work on it more than a page or so at time, it seems so "not what I want to do."
But every time I come back to it, it seems... good? Maybe even "powerful"? Certainly worth struggling onward. So I plug in another page and then ~blearg~ have to quit.

So I may be wasting my time. But is my pleasure the measure of that?
There are real questions, here, for me.

@angelslayah 

Interesting thought.

I often leave a post with the salutation, 'Have fun,' hoping that any student of the craft will find pleasure in the creative act. Is pleasure necessary to creative expression? Certainly not. Doyle came to detest Holmes, a creation that has eclipsed him in fame and whose archetypal longevity appears to be assured for decades to come. However, money brought Holmes back from the dead and I can't imagine Doyle's mood as he forced himself to write The Adventure of the Empty House. 

In a recent WotF entry, multiple antagonists were based on family members and childhood acquaintances. I struggled with it creatively and emotionally and can honestly say that I hated nearly every moment of it. The end result satisfied me and those who have read it in its entirety but it was rejected here and at several other markets.

Works like that are cathartic for me, which is good. They also stretch my ability to apply myself to subject matter that I find unsavory. (I don't believe that anyone who writes of humanity's inhumanity actually advocates for evil but must write it well in order to have it stand in stark contrast to that which is good.) And perhaps personal mastery of the craft is where a writer finds solace in writing something that isn't at all fun.

'Not fun' comes in many forms. Particularly disquieting for me is experimental fiction, certain forms of which have no right to the claim of Language. Experimenting with POV, person, and tense can be harrowing rides into the unknown. But as long as the act of creation scratches that je ne sais quoi, who's to say that it is not a smidgen entertaining?

Now, can I state that I must take personal pleasure in the writing for it to be well received? Yes. Of fifteen placements in the contest, I took pleasure in creating all fifteen. Some that I had fun creating failed to place but all of the entries that I disliked producing have failed to place.

(Individual results may vary. The preceding testimonial does not claim to represent typical results. I am a real participant but may not reflect the typical participant's experience. I do not intend to claim or guarantee that any other participant will achieve my or similar results.) ? 

Have fun,

Kent

Posted by: @angelslayah

Posted by: @doctorjest

stories I don't enjoy writing aren't stories anyone else will enjoy reading, either

This seems intuitive and like a self-evident truth, but I wonder if it's really so.
Let me argue from "creative coding" which is a thing I do and sometimes teach. 
Of course I have to want and like the thing I'm trying to make -the thing I finally settle on making, sometimes- but the process can be extraordinarily difficult, even painful -my brain, or at lest my thinking, has to grow out of its old shapes.
Honestly don't know if, or how, this translates to writing but, right now I'm "trying something different" on a short story and I find I can hardly work on it more than a page or so at time, it seems so "not what I want to do."
But every time I come back to it, it seems... good? Maybe even "powerful"? Certainly worth struggling onward. So I plug in another page and then ~blearg~ have to quit.

So I may be wasting my time. But is my pleasure the measure of that?
There are real questions, here, for me.

I think the question here, then, would be whether it's universal truth, or personal truth.

What I've found is that if I don't enjoy writing a story, I'm also not doing my best work. Now, when I say I'm not enjoying writing, I don't equate that necessarily to the writing being fun, or to it not being difficult. I've found writing deeply difficult, depressing passages rewarding to work on, even when they're slow and challenging. But if I'm not getting any enjoyment out of it at all, on any level, then it's almost certainly both flowing poorly, and yielding equally poor results for the effort. And I've developed a pretty good instinct for that by now, as well as developing at least a ghost of a sense of what's wrong. I have that in this case--though finding that missing piece is, as so often, rather more elusive than identifying it.

I'm certainly not arguing that someone shouldn't write the difficult things. Frankly, if you side-step the difficult writing, you won't win this contest in a month of Mondays. But it also helps to know when your efforts are being wasted, which is a whole other sack of cats. For me, too, I find that if I move onto something that I find more rewarding, it has a synergistic effect on my general creativity, and I frequently find answers or ideas for other stories, too. 

But, ultimately, each writer needs to know themselves, and the conditions under which their craft best thrives. Give me any rule that starts with Writers Must, and I'll find you a successful writer who swears by not doing it.

Posted by: @doctorjest

But, ultimately, each writer needs to know themselves, and the conditions under which their craft best thrives. Give me any rule that starts with Writers Must, and I'll find you a successful writer who swears by not doing it.

True. Seems every time I hear "Writers must..." I will inevitably hear a successful author give completely opposite advice within a few days.

As to the question around not liking what you're writing, I tend to be similar to yourself, Jest. I can sometimes put words on a page, while even in my mind a small part of me is just wanting to skip ahead or finish the piece because I'm not interested in it. Usually for me, if I let this kind of writing sit for a day or so and go back to it, I'm not overly impressed. Still, as you stated, my preferences and experiences with writing by no means need to determine someone else's.

It is nice when the reverse happens and you feel thoroughly invigorated by the words, even as your writing them, and when you finish it's like, "Yes! This is brilliant!" I have a couple of those. They're the ones I work the hardest to get published. If I like those stories, surely there are others out there who will, too.

Haha! Well, I thought this quick pick-up story would be on the small to medium size...and, it's not gonna be. Worldbuilding alone to set the stage for it is going to be fairly sizeable, and it's genuinely important to the story in this case, so I can't just crop it back. My initial guess was 4-6K for a first draft, but I'll be lucky to clear act 1 inside of 3K, and the character's arc will have barely begun by then. So I guess we'll see.

It's been a very disrupted week, but I have just about stayed in touch with my writing during it.  

Posted by: @scott_m_sands

Seems every time I hear "Writers must..." I will inevitably hear a successful author give completely opposite advice within a few days.

*dons Captain Barbossa cosplay* That's because the code is more guidelines than actual rules. (Or, if you'd prefer, because no two people write exactly the same way, and because different techniques work differently for different brains.) A big part of learning how to write/finding your own style is figuring out which rules do or don't work for you--and being able to adapt when that changes, because no two stories are the same either and what worked for the last one may not work for the next.

Changed all 3200 words of my first draft from 3rd to 1st today. I dunno. I did 3rd for all four stories in v.38. OK. Fine. Done. Time to go back to 1st. I need all the help I can get to sit at my computer and write nowadays.

It's got that 3rd person distance (imo) but in 1st. I'm confident I'll be able to back-fill the details and intimacy. Meanwhile, I'm hoping to add to the word total now that I'm back in 1st. Tends to be how I think when AFK. This will make it easier to imagine, jot notes, and finally - write!

Posted by: @doctorjest

Worldbuilding alone to set the stage for it is going to be fairly sizeable, and it's genuinely important to the story in this case, so I can't just crop it back. My initial guess was 4-6K for a first draft, but I'll be lucky to clear act 1 inside of 3K, and the character's arc will have barely begun by then. So I guess we'll see.

Sounds like a reject if you are not introducing a conflict early (page 1 or 2) and the main conflict by page 5.

As an option, consider dispersing the world building throughout the first half of the story. Add what's needed for the current scene and action, then layer in later what's needed for those scenes. As long as your first chunks don't evoke false images of the world, the later layers won't conflict with the reader's view and thus take them out of the story.