Discussion Q2 Volume 39

Posted by: @elainemidcoh

As we await another Thursday....Just wanted to share the value of a “Kill Your Darlings” (KYD) approach to your story. I don’t post much, but am an avid WotF forum lurker. I first heard of KYD here (a Wulf Moon tip, I think). My understanding of KYD is that even if your story has wonderful moments, lyrical prose, best scene ever written, terrific dialogue, etc., you should edit out anything that doesn’t advance the tale (ie: kill your darlings).  

The very first story I submitted to WotF came in at 12,000+ words. It earned an HM and I was over the moon. But in the past few years of writing, I learned to KYD. That HM 12,000+ word story lost one-third of its fat and became a less than 8,000 word story. And I sold it! The story, “Sized,” was just published in the July 2022 issue of “Galaxy’s Edge” magazine! (You can read it and the entire July 2022 issue for free over the next two months at www.GalaxysEdge.com .)    

Here's another KYD proof of concept (at least for me…). My “Published Finalist” story that was in WotF v. 37 (called “The Battle of Donasi”) originally had a five page beginning that, of course, I thought was well done and created a strong sense of what was going on with the main character. Had some good dialogue and interactions as well. I KYD’ed it and managed to get those five pages down to two paragraphs. I think those two paragraphs did as good a job as the original five pages, but it got the story going at a faster pace. (By the way, I don't think writing those five pages was a wasted effort - that's how I got to know my character - if I didn't write those five pages, I doubt that I would have developed a good two paragraph beginning.)

Finally, a word from an avid forum lurker – many thanks to those of you who consistently post and who have wonderful discussions on writing and what works and doesn’t work for you. This lurker has learned much and is most grateful!!   

Nice, Elaine! I owe my own win the wonderful folks on this forum. FYI, Battle of Donasi was one of my favorite stories in Volume 37.

@cweaver I also believe just mentioning it ahead of time helps. Whether in the form of a narrated tale, a warning, whatever. Just leaving obvious crumbs that something fantastical is indeed afoot. We’ll see if that is indeed an effective method when the results from Q2 come in for me. 

Posted by: @prestondennett

Posted by: @elainemidcoh

Here's another KYD proof of concept (at least for me…). My “Published Finalist” story that was in WotF v. 37 (called “The Battle of Donasi”)

Nice, Elaine! FYI, Battle of Donasi was one of my favorite stories in Volume 37.

Mine, too, Elaine. Great story with excellent tension and a nicely hidden premise.

BTW, we're not too far away geographically. I live just north of Orlando.

Posted by: @ehonour

Posted by: @prestondennett

Posted by: @elainemidcoh

Here's another KYD proof of concept (at least for me…). My “Published Finalist” story that was in WotF v. 37 (called “The Battle of Donasi”)

Nice, Elaine! FYI, Battle of Donasi was one of my favorite stories in Volume 37.

Mine, too, Elaine. Great story with excellent tension and a nicely hidden premise.

BTW, we're not too far away geographically. I live just north of Orlando.

Wow - thank you both - always lovely when someone not related to you likes your story! Preston, your "A Certain Slant of Light" story (WotF v. 35) is outstanding - what a premise! Doc, always nice to connect with a fellow Floridian. - Your local library system (OCLS.info) has several free online writing workshops throughout the year. I've taken quite a few, including some sci-fi ones, and was impressed with the quality. BTW, on Sun. Aug. 28, 1 pm to 2 pm (eastern time) they will have a free online workshop on "Short Genre Fiction - Learn the fundamentals of planning, writing, revising, and submitting short fiction -- focusing on science fiction, fantasy, and horror -- from Nebula Award winning author Premee Mohamed." Anyone can sign up (I already did!). Here's the direct link: Virtual: Short Genre Fiction - Orange County Library System (ocls.info) 

Regarding the above post, if you want to register for the free workshop, they'll ask for your library card number, but don't worry - you don't have to enter that info to register. They just need your name and email address.

Posted by: @elainemidcoh

BTW, on Sun. Aug. 28, 1 pm to 2 pm (eastern time) they will have a free online workshop on "Short Genre Fiction - Learn the fundamentals of planning, writing, revising, and submitting short fiction -- focusing on science fiction, fantasy, and horror -- from Nebula Award winning author Premee Mohamed." Anyone can sign up (I already did!). Here's the direct link: Virtual: Short Genre Fiction - Orange County Library System (ocls.info) 

Thanks for the link! Just signed up with no problems. We'll see what they have to say.

Posted by: @elainemidcoh

As we await another Thursday....Just wanted to share the value of a “Kill Your Darlings” (KYD) approach to your story. I don’t post much, but am an avid WotF forum lurker. I first heard of KYD here (a Wulf Moon tip, I think). My understanding of KYD is that even if your story has wonderful moments, lyrical prose, best scene ever written, terrific dialogue, etc., you should edit out anything that doesn’t advance the tale (ie: kill your darlings).  

The very first story I submitted to WotF came in at 12,000+ words. It earned an HM and I was over the moon. But in the past few years of writing, I learned to KYD. That HM 12,000+ word story lost one-third of its fat and became a less than 8,000 word story. And I sold it! The story, “Sized,” was just published in the July 2022 issue of “Galaxy’s Edge” magazine! (You can read it and the entire July 2022 issue for free over the next two months at www.GalaxysEdge.com .)    

Here's another KYD proof of concept (at least for me…). My “Published Finalist” story that was in WotF v. 37 (called “The Battle of Donasi”) originally had a five page beginning that, of course, I thought was well done and created a strong sense of what was going on with the main character. Had some good dialogue and interactions as well. I KYD’ed it and managed to get those five pages down to two paragraphs. I think those two paragraphs did as good a job as the original five pages, but it got the story going at a faster pace. (By the way, I don't think writing those five pages was a wasted effort - that's how I got to know my character - if I didn't write those five pages, I doubt that I would have developed a good two paragraph beginning.)

Finally, a word from an avid forum lurker – many thanks to those of you who consistently post and who have wonderful discussions on writing and what works and doesn’t work for you. This lurker has learned much and is most grateful!!   

I’m glad my KYD: Kill Your Darlings Super Secret helped, Elaine. That’s why I wrote the Secrets, and many have attributed applying that Super Secret in particular as the reason their work started selling.

As a few examples, I know Zach Bright’s Resnick Award grand prize winner was based off the KYD exercise we did in the workshop here. In my KYD master class at Fyrecon, David Hankins crafted a story from the exercise that became his first published story, now in DreamForge magazine. While mentoring Brittany Rainsdon, I noted how beautiful but wordy her works were, and told her if she would commit to doing 5 KYD exercises in one month, it would transform her writing. Bless her, she did the work, and one of those KYDs became the basis for her first published story, in Deep Magic (it went on to be reprinted in Best of DM2 as well, btw). After that, she wrote her published finalist, and followed that up with her winner “Half-Breed” in Vol. 37. She will readily say KYD training transformed her writing. 

There’s a reason for this. Newer writers tend to put in far more information and details than the story really needs. Short stories need to be tight and streamlined, focused on the opening promise from beginning to end. KYD training over time will teach a writer to write tight, and leaner, focused stories sell … and win major contests like this one.

If any are interested, I share the basics of this premise in my KYD article at DreamForge. It’s free. I hope it helps many more of you here as you continue in your writer journey. https://dreamforge.mywebportal.app/dreamforge/stories/show/kyd-kill-your-darlings-wulf-moon

Nice to see all your successes, Elaine. All the best to your career! ?

Wulf Moon

@wulfmoon Oh yeah, KILL YOUR DARLINGS! That is an excellent skill. Heck, I think that tips been around since like, 1913. I remember first reading it in Stephen King’s glorious, ‘On Writing’ and thinking I didn’t have it in me to make the sacrifices.

I find some of the best writing tips are also some of the oldest. Mark Twain had some really good ones too. But I know KYD has saved my stories many times! It’s a good skill to learn.

Posted by: @morshana

Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

Posted by: @storysinger

Welcome to the forum John Mabey. You're learning about our Thursday fixation, wait until you hear about the way we all twitch at the mention of results being posted.

I am reasonably confident that the origins of the Thursday fixation were lost in the server move. And if somehow they weren’t, I’ll claim that the statute of limitations has elapsed!

I believe Kitty is responsible for that fixation. Chocolate-crazed rambling in the middle of the night... Those were the days!

*tosses Kitty back into her cage and takes flame thrower*

Now, now. Kitty might like to claim she's responsible for Thursday fixations, but that was long before her days. I do believe, however, that she did get into a stash of chocolate one night years ago and claimed that every day was Thursday. Yes. Temporary insanity. In between bouts of firing marshmallow guns and torching the place.

So I remember David Farland wrote a few pieces concerning Honorable Mentions and the sort of things he looks for in a winning piece.

Has Jody Lynn Nye written anything in that regard, or made any statements? I'm kind of expecting a straight up rejection this quarter based on the nature of my story, actually.

@lambenttyto She hasn’t said anything official. I do know (or believe) she is close with Stephen King. So there’s that. Also, at the last conference I attended, she spoke about horror definitely being an option for WOTF, IF done right. That being the hard part; a good PG13 balance of horror elements and an interesting story. She mentioned the story still needs fantastical/supernatural elements as opposed to more grounded elements like serial killers, which is not allowed.

Mine is more horror. I was nervous knowing it doesn’t normally have a place in this contest, but with Jody…and the tips she offered...I decided to risk it. We’ll see.

@jmabey I've only just got into King and really wish I'd read his stuff earlier. He really does know how to hook. It's proper can't put down stuff. 

I got a copy of his On Writing, just arrived today, and look forward to learning a lot.

@pdblake *gasp* On writing has taught me more than most of the conferences I’ve attended combined. It’s solid, although it has moments of ‘opinion’ almost all of his rules and ideas apply.

When someone tells me they’re planning on spending hundreds to thousands of dollars on learning from someone who has never even successfully written a book, I give them this. It’s worth far more and most teaching those classes just steal from it anyway and call it their own. One has to be careful.

@jmabey that sounds like three quid well spent then. Lol

I've only read the intro so far and even his how to is as hooky as his fiction. 

@pdblake King has a fantastic essay called Great Hookers I Have Known. If you can find it, I recommend.

On Writing is excellent as long as you remember: Tools, Not Rules. It's HIS way, not THE way. Given that, there's a lot to think about in there.

News from Kary!

I was supposed to share this earlier this week (she's in a low-connectivity location), but I forgot. My apologies.

I'm done with my side of Q2, and am working on Q3. Jody is still working on her side of q2. Expect another couple of weeks. If that message could get relayed on the forum, I'd be grateful.

@martin-l-shoemaker thanks!

Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

News from Kary!

I was supposed to share this earlier this week (she's in a low-connectivity location), but I forgot. My apologies.

I'm done with my side of Q2, and am working on Q3. Jody is still working on her side of q2. Expect another couple of weeks. If that message could get relayed on the forum, I'd be grateful.

And now my left eyelid is twitching. 

*grabs blanket like a cape and heads to the kitchen for hot cocoa*

This is nice to know. Thanks @martin-l-shoemaker for relaying Kary's message. Based on the timing of Q1 results I predicted Q2 results being revealed in mid-August. So our Q2 results are like Schrodinger's cat, simultaneously fantastic and tragic and our Q3's are both moving on and being cut. We can't know without looking. Looking affects the results. What's a person to do?  

Obviously focus on our Q4s.  

On my end, I'm having a tough time finding the story and characters I want to invest my time on. I know, still early. I want to write a story where character interactions ramp up the tension. I can see it in my mind... Maybe drinking more coffee and looking at story inspiration cards will help.  

May inspiration strike us all so we can get to writing while we wait... And for those of you who've submitted their Q4, wow! I suppose there's always looking ahead to Q1.

 @physa

Maybe drinking more coffee and looking at story inspiration cards will help.  

 

Don't drink too much coffee, Amy. Because, well, you know, between the shaking and the bathroom trips you won't get ANY writing done. ?

I can't function without coffee and atm I need to function. I'm putting a 188k novel through Ken Rand's 10% solution. It is a rather large job to say the least. 

Still, it stops me twitching. 

@pdblake Would be most appreciative if you post how long it takes you to 10% Solution a novel that size.  Mine will be in the 90-95K range once I finish this draft, and I've been wondering if it'd even be feasible to try or if I'd just end up wanting to gouge out my eyeballs.

@chwalter I'm approximately 20% through (at the ing pass) and I've been at it for over a month. Only in fits and starts though. I reckon each pass averaged out at about eight hours solid. This pass is the biggest though and I've already dropped 8k words. 

I do keep stopping to do other things though. I go a bit bog eyed after a while. The more I do though the more I love this novel. I want it perfect. I'm hoping to be done by the end of August while writing some shorts too. 

Posted by: @martin-l-shoemaker

News from Kary!

I was supposed to share this earlier this week (she's in a low-connectivity location), but I forgot. My apologies.

I'm done with my side of Q2, and am working on Q3. Jody is still working on her side of q2. Expect another couple of weeks. If that message could get relayed on the forum, I'd be grateful.

Thank you for the update, Martin!   

Posted by: @pdblake

@chwalter I'm approximately 20% through (at the ing pass) and I've been at it for over a month. Only in fits and starts though. I reckon each pass averaged out at about eight hours solid. This pass is the biggest though and I've already dropped 8k words. 

I do keep stopping to do other things though. I go a bit bog eyed after a while. The more I do though the more I love this novel. I want it perfect. I'm hoping to be done by the end of August while writing some shorts too. 

@pdblake - I'm currently working on finishing the first draft of my latest novel. I've been hitting it hard over the last week. Hoping to be finished (or very close to) by the end of the coming week.

That'll feel sweet.

@scott_m_sands How long has it taken you to put that novel together? When did you start?

@pdblake Good for you.  Maybe I'll do it once after I've decided there will be no other drafts.  The technique has been very helpful with my short stories, but man is it painful.  Right now I'm working on my Q4 so I can spend August-November finishing the second draft before it's time to start my Q1.

@chwalter I've found with shorts that it's got much quicker as I tend to subconsciously omit a lot of stuff as I go now. Much less to cut out again later. This novel was written before I discovered Rand's book. 

@pdblake my first novel ended up at 114k on the first draft and 89k on the last draft. My third was 89k on the first draft and 93k on the last draft - we learn where to spend our words wisely through revision! (We don’t talk about my second novel)